# How can GWB be leading in the Polls??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055 "2004-04-20T17:32:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/241 "2004-04-24T15:05:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > No one expected us to be in and out in a year. Self-comforting bullshit, just like “\*everyone \* thought there were WMD’s”. Doesn’t fool anyone but the person saying it. > [@](#): > > If we have as many troops there 3 years from now as we have there now, you can call it a quagmire. Intelligent people realize it’s way too early to call it a quagmire. Does that mean that you, a self-described “intelligent person”, think there won’t be? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/242 "2004-04-24T21:01:32Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Instead of dealing with stereotypes, why not go with known facts? > > _John Kerry:_ Vietnam veteran. Has repeatedly killed enemy soldiers under combat conditions. Also has admitted that he is a [war criminal](http://www.dynamictruth.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=006775) on “Meet the Press”. > [@rjung](#): > > _George W. Bush:_ Avoided serving in Vietnam. Did not retaliate for _USS Cole_ bombing for fear that would “embolden the terrorists” and make them attack again. Received a series of PDBs about imminent terrorst attacks inside the United States and did nothing. As long as we are dealing with “known facts”, perhaps we could remind ourselves who was President when the [USS Cole was attacked?](http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/10/23/uss.cole.01/) Let me give you a little hint - he was not known for his outstanding [military record.](http://www.newsmax.com/commentarchive.shtml?a=1999/2/3/102848) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/243 "2004-04-24T21:06:40Z")
Oh, for fuck’s sake… Can the Right please release their Clinton hard-ons for a while? Clinton isn’t running, either one of them. Why is he constantly dragged into these threads about George W. Bush, who never ran against the man? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/244 "2004-04-24T21:37:45Z")
Yes, please explain how Clinton’s failures are relevant. You do know he’s not running against GWB, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/245 "2004-04-25T05:08:43Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Another issue is a strong national defense. Americans want it, despite protestations from the pacifists on this board. We already have a strong national defense. We have a very strong defense. Looks at how the United States compares with [every other country](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/mil_exp_dol_fig) We spend almost **5 times more** than our nearest competitor, China. We spend nearly as much as our top ten nearest competitors combined. Even if the Democrats took the radical step of slashing our military budget in half, we’d still be able to defend ourselves quite well. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/246 "2004-04-25T06:51:00Z")
I think **Mr Moto** means the go-and-invade-other-countries-not-bothering-us sort of “defense.” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/247 "2004-04-25T12:08:22Z")
Since the C-word has already been mentioned, I’ll just bring up the fact that the Clinton administration (and, indeed, the first Bush administration) did an enormous amount to diminish the threat of North Korea, much of which work the current administration has subsequently undone. Through years of negotiations (started under Bush Sr, and painstaking continued throughout the Clinton years), North Korea was on the verge of signing up to an Agreed Framework under which NK would freeze and eventually dismantle its nuclear weapons program, remain a party to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, and allow IAEA inspections of sites not covered by the freeze. That Clinton fell at the last hurdle (he was to go to Pyongyang in person in October 2000 for final talks and to sign the agreements personally, but didn’t due to Israeli-Palestinian flareups and political reasons around the election) is more than unfortunate – Clinton has more than once publically taken responsibility for not finishing the process. But NK was willing to continue the agreement with the incoming administration. Unfortunately, the hardliners held sway and refused to countenance any appearance of appeasement regardless of the benefits to be gained. Bush’s Axis of Evil speech in January 2002 hardly helped matters, but NK were still open to a revised Agreed Framework, which Powell proposed in June 2002. Unfortunately Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Rice felt that we could not trust the North Koreans, and scuppered all support for Powell’s plans. Left with no face-saving options and a hostile US government, North Korea restarted a nuclear reactor it had shut down in 1994 as part of the original Agreed Framework, a plant which had been judged capable of producing enough fissile material to make one nuclear weapon per year, and began preparations for starting up larger plants capable of processing weapons-grade plutonium. In essence the Bush administration is dominated by those who continue to advocate Cold War strategies in a post-Cold War world, and by doing so have (presumably inadvertently) increased a threat that could have been neutralized. But hey – Kin Jong-Il is a ruthless dictator, right? We shouldn’t talk to people like that, right? Okay, then what the hell are we doing in [Uzbekistan](http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1108-02.htm), our new best friends in Central Asia? Yes, I know that’s a progressive site, but it’s a good synopsis; it also has a link to the State Department’s report on the country: > [@](#): > > Citizens cannot exercise their right to change their government peacefully. The Government has not permitted the existence of an opposition party since 1993. Election and registration laws restrict the possibility that any real opposition parties form or mount a campaign. There were credible reports that security force mistreatment resulted in the deaths of several citizens in custody. Police and NSS forces tortured, beat, and harassed persons. The security forces arbitrarily arrested or detained pious Muslims and other citizens on false charges, frequently planting narcotics, weapons, or forbidden literature on them. Prison conditions are poor, and detention can be prolonged. The judiciary does not always ensure due process and often defers to the wishes of the executive branch. […] Police and NSS forces infringed on citizens’ privacy, including the use of illegal searches and wiretaps. Those responsible for documented abuses rarely are punished. Or is this our current dictator friend-du-jour, to be invaded (c.v. Noriega, Hussain) when Jeb gets elected? [Shit – I’ve just wasted a perfectly good GD post in the Pit.] ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/248 "2004-04-25T12:31:35Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > …(he was to go to Pyongyang in person in October 2000 for final talks and to sign the agreements personally, but didn’t due to Israeli-Palestinian flareups and political reasons around the election). Ahem. A President of the United States of America was _not_ going to North Korea. Also, you conveniently ignore that Bush will now have to deal with weapons that North Korea developed under the Clinton administration. Not that I blame Clinton for that, but the NK weapons program did not begin with the inauguration of GWB. > [@](#): > > [Shit – I’ve just wasted a perfectly good GD post in the Pit.] No, you didn’t waste a ‘perfectly good GD post’. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/249 "2004-04-25T15:13:52Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > No one expected us to be in and out in a year. If we have as many troops there 3 years from now as we have there now, you can call it a quagmire. Intelligent people realize it’s way too early to call it a quagmire. [It’s no surprise that you wouldn’t have heard it from them:](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/25/opinion/25SUN1.html) > [@](#): > > The White House does not talk about it much, but the Pentagon is planning to stay in Iraq at least until the end of 2006. Even that timetable is extremely optimistic. Lessee, that’s 2.6 years, minimum, _already planned_. Will you insist on waiting until late 2006 to recognize the totally fucking obvious, Mr. “Intelligent Person”? Shall we set a date of, say, Thanksgiving? You disappoint me greatly, John. But you no longer surprise me, sadly. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/250 "2004-04-25T16:17:15Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Ahem. > > A President of the United States of America was _not_ going to North Korea. Like a US President was never going to go to PR China? Clinton would not go until everything was agreed, but Madeleine Albright went in 2000 to hammer out the final terms, and the North Koreans were certainly under the impression Clinton would sign the agreement in person. > [@](#): > > Also, you conveniently ignore that Bush will now have to deal with weapons that North Korea developed under the Clinton administration. Which he would not have had to do, had he been willing to negotiate with the North Koreans. Which was my point. > [@](#): > > Not that I blame Clinton for that, but the NK weapons program did not begin with the inauguration of GWB. Obviously it didn’t; otherwise the previous two administrations wouldn’t have bothered with all the negotiations. Look - North Korea is an isolated, resource-poor and paranoid little state. Nuclear weapons and materials are pretty much the only cards it has to play, and it will not give them up without receiving certain guarantees and other resources in return. We can’t threaten or bluster them into giving them up; having just seen what happened in Iraq you can be damn sure they’re not about to let go of the one thing they know will keep them from getting invaded. > [@](#): > > No, you didn’t waste a ‘perfectly good GD post’. Phew. That’s a relief. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/251 "2004-04-25T17:00:19Z")
> [@Dob](#): > > From [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/19/bush.kerry.poll/index.html) > > Who the hell are these people surveying?? Did they pull their list from the RNC!?? Do any of these idiots watch TV? Did you see his press conference?? I just dont get it!! I know John Kerry is not the answer, but holy shit, hes a better answer than GWB!!! > > GWB has not handled one freaking thing right in his term…not ONE! He has lied to us again and again. I mean for God’s sake, he walked out on his National Guard duty!! Someone, anyone, give me hope that if this shambling excuse for a President is re-elected our country wont be going to shit!!! > > GWB voters…what the hell do you see in this man? Does he really inspire you in some way? Give you hope? WHAT DAMIT, WHAT??? I voted for him. I don’t agree with everything that he has done / not done, and overall I’d rate his Presidency as a B to a B-. But compared to the 8 years of solid Fs from Clinton, Bush is doing a great job. And in looking at what’s going to run against him in November…if Bush were to drop out of the race, I’d sooner vote for a one-legged leper than vote for Kerry. MY $0.02 worth, anyway… ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/252 "2004-04-25T23:01:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As long as we are dealing with “known facts”, perhaps we could remind ourselves who was President when the [USS Cole was attacked?](http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/10/23/uss.cole.01/) And I’m sure you would have been _soooooooooooooo_ supportive if he had done that… \ **Shodan:** “That Clinton is _such_ an asshole! Now he wants us to start a war with Afghanistan because he _thinks_ the terrorists who attacked the USS Cole were from there! Even the CIA and the FBI admit they can’t conclusively prove anything yet, but Blowjob Billy wants to go in like a crazed cowboy! Besides, he’s just doing this to piss on Bush’s presidency, starting a fight and then running out the door, leaving George holding the bag!” \ ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/253 "2004-04-26T00:05:21Z")
I for one find it heartening that Clinton did not respond to the bombing of the USS Cole because **Shodan** _might_ have disapproved. It shows strength of character! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/254 "2004-04-26T02:01:52Z")
Over at ol’ Josh Marshalls _Talking Points Memo_ there is an interesting conjecture: its a Kerryist plot. Boiled down, its this: Kerry doesn’t have the money that GeeDubya does. Money is a major advantage, and there is no plausible way to neutralze that. So Kerry decides to take his lumps early, take a quietist approach as the scandals break, and save his ammo for the home stretch. Now, according to uncitable rumors I am too lazy to track down, the Bushiviks spent about 50 megabucks countering the recent scandals. And it worked, Bush is marginally ahead in the polls. But to accomplish this, they spent almost a quarter of thier ready cash. Now, advertising works, no getting around it. The Bushiviks have managed to plant the “waffling” image in the public mind based pretty much on nothing. But keep in mind, the Pubbies had the same money advantage the last time out and still managed to lose the popular vote. As well, there is the “other shoe” effect. Just about everything the Bushiviks could throw at Kerry has _been_ thrown (a few of which, like the recent slurs on his war record, were downright embarrassing). If that’s the best they got, they ain’t got much when it comes to negative campaigning. And I suspect that they’ve got as much mileage out the “firm, decisive leader” Bushwah as they’re likely to. So the “other shoe” factor isn’t there for Kerry. But for Bush? Well, only if the last few weeks have brought out every possible embarassing fact about GeeDubya’s bold and decisive leadership style. The Kerryists are betting otherwise. Good bet? ---
**Author:** ![Tobio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@Tobio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tobio)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/255 "2004-04-26T02:14:14Z")
I find it extremely disheartening that Bush has any support at all. Never mind the unprovoked war he got us into under false pretenses, never mind that our military might was shifted from the pursuit of honest to God _terrorists_ to invade Iraq. What gets me is that he so blatantly pitches his campaign to the cross-burning crowd: from campaigning at Bob Jones University in 2000 (a school with a campus building named after a Grand Dragon of the KKK, and that forbade interracial dating at the time) to his support for the Musgrave amendment, Bush has actively courted the support of the kind of bigots that reasonable conservatives insist they _are not_. I think it’s time that Republicans consider that the best thing that could happen for the party is to have Bush lose, big time. That may be the first step in reclaiming the party of Lincoln from the folks who have turned it into the party of David Duke. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/256 "2004-04-26T03:37:25Z")
The GOP is now the party of the Klan? Who will let Senator Byrd know? ---
**Author:** ![Tobio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@Tobio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tobio)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/257 "2004-04-26T03:43:49Z")
Byrd is a disgusting piece of shit, IMHO… but he is not the defacto leader of his party, nor does he actively campaign on a platform of hate. The sane Republicans, McCain for example, need to take back the party. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/258 "2004-04-26T03:53:32Z")
You are so precious. McCain is just one of those names that you throw out there in a childish attempt at making yourself look ‘non-partisan’. Of course, the fact that you throw McCains name out there shows that you don’t know shit about him. You talk about the need for McCain to ‘take back the party’. Not that I would mind a President McCain, but if President GW Bush is making your type shit bricks, a President McCain would give you an anuerism. ---
**Author:** ![Tobio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@Tobio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tobio)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/259 "2004-04-26T03:57:07Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > The GOP is now the party of the Klan? Who will let Senator Byrd know? Your silly tu quoque argument is meaningless, seeing as Byrd is not a presidential candidate. What is disgusting to me is that the candidate for president who has pitched his campaign squarely at the worst kind of bigot still has the support of hard-line Republicans. Y’all know better than that. ---
**Author:** ![Tobio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@Tobio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tobio)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/260 "2004-04-26T04:02:22Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Not that I would mind a President McCain, but if President GW Bush is making your type shit bricks, a President McCain would give you an anuerism. I love the ignorance of blind partisans who think they know all about someone based on one post. :rolleyes: Registered Libertarian here, Barry Goldwater is my political idol. Bush is simply a tool of the far right “Christian” bigots who currently control the Republican party, he is no conservative of any stripe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055.md?page=14)