# How can GWB be leading in the Polls??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055 "2004-04-20T17:32:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/101 "2004-04-21T02:43:32Z")
At this point the people who are not already committed are not paying much attention. You can figure that the people posting here are committed and, for good reasons or bad, have made up their minds. My views of the President and his merry band of robber barons, Bible thumpers and free-lunch tax ideologues have been no secret. Few others around here have hidden their political position in a bushel basket. If you go to what counts as political dialogue in Presidential press conferences and TV ads (I have the misfortune to live in a so called battleground state, albeit one with a measly 7 electorial votes) all you are going to pick up is a constant repetition of glittering generalities, platitudes, broad misrepresentations and half truths and the sincere assertion that the rooster’s crowing makes the sun come up in the morning. Sooner or latter the electorate will have its attention engaged and may come to realize that we are not engaged in the selection of a junior high school homecoming king. When that happens – about the time of the debates – the specifics of policy, past and anticipated, will become crucial and the undecided will start to weigh the evidence and reach a verdict. There will also be a realization that Senator Kerry is considerably taller than the President. In the mean time, six percent of the electorate wants to vote for Ralph Nader. What the hell is that? If that abhorrent little passant screws up another election there will be the Devil to pay. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/102 "2004-04-21T03:08:29Z")
And how do you suggest he go about that? You think the Bushiviks will give him half thier money, just to be sure everything is fair? I’ve read Kerry’s position, and for the most part they are relatively uninspired moderate liberal boilerplate. Nor do I believe than anyone not born in Nazereth has a plan guaranteed to add 10 million jobs to our economy. But just because you are not aware of Kerry’s platform doesn’t it mean he hasn’t got one. On the other hand, I know more than I want to about _Bush’s_ platform. I havent been this certain about a candidates platform since Nixon. Bush takes up all the oxygen in the room, he generates darkness. I have no problem with freely admitting that I will be voting more against Bush than for Kerry. I don’t think Bush is an evil man, I think he is a dangerous man. I don’t think Kerry bestrides the world like a collossus, I just think he’ll do. I fear GeeDubya has swallowed one of the more common myths of our time, that mediocre men with hidden stores of greatness are elevated by crisis, singled out by Providence, to do Great Things. To my dismay, he believes it: that he is a Leader of Men, destined. When in fact he is a product, marketed like so much Boraxo. So OK, if you want to think of it like that, no prob. Bush is, in fact, more the issue than Kerry. Kerry doesn’t have a positive program? Look, I want to get out of this shit first, then we can talk about whether to get drunk or go tease the Amish. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/103 "2004-04-21T03:10:30Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > …If that abhorrent little passant screws up another election there will be the Devil to pay. Only if Ol’ Scratch gets him first. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/104 "2004-04-21T03:47:23Z")
Kerry for now looks like another “funky QB known as McMahon” in regards to foreign and other policies: “When I hit the turf, I got no plan.” We already have a Jim McMahon-type as president. Kerry has to show a detailed, solid plan for his policies if he becomes president, for the pundits to chew on, and very soon. Or else, he will be forever be defined by the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/105 "2004-04-21T03:49:04Z")
…Because people haven’t started making the analogy with Jimmy Carter yet. Make no mistake, large portions of the world are screaming for American humiliation: the Middle East and the UN security council to name 2. The current Iraq situation is the opportunity for those people to hold the US to a sort of ransom. It may be physical hostages in Baghdad & Fallujah, or something else. My guess is, the UN particularly the French will subtly but gleefully communicate to the US people that, there could be a large postive breakthrough, a turnaround in UN support for the Iraq occupation, if only there was a change in President, a small tokenistic sacrifice. An earlier and excellent post recited the desire of Joe American for Blood. Similarly Joe Foreigner wants a sign of US humility, a sacrifice and GWB will be the one. Like Jimmy Carter with the Iran hostages. Do I know this will happen? No I don’t, but I believe my take on the psychology is right and the opportunities are right there. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/106 "2004-04-21T06:16:19Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > …Because people haven’t started making the analogy with Jimmy Carter yet. > > Make no mistake, large portions of the world are screaming for American humiliation: the Middle East and the UN security council to name 2. > > The current Iraq situation is the opportunity for those people to hold the US to a sort of ransom. > > It may be physical hostages in Baghdad & Fallujah, or something else. And yet, all I’ve seen from Kerry about the war is that there need to be more troops sent to Iraq, but they should be multinational, not American. Where are these countries lining up to commit troops? Right now at least one country is pulling it’s troops out of Iraq. Kerry’s “solution” to the Iraq war is a fantasy. “If I’m elected President, the world will rush to join us!” Bullshit. You seem to be buying into it too, because you say: > [@](#): > > My guess is, the UN particularly the French will subtly but gleefully communicate to the US people that, there could be a large postive breakthrough, a turnaround in UN support for the Iraq occupation, if only there was a change in President, a small tokenistic sacrifice. Son, if you think the French, or the Germans, or the Russians, etc… are just bidding their time hoping Bush gets defeated in order to jump into Iraq, you’re massively deluded. The fact that Muslem extremists are focused on the US largely to the exclusion of Europe _benefits_ France, a country with a large and unhappy Muslem underclass. If France sticks it’s toe into Iraq and the extremists don’t like it, they have a huge base of people from which to recruit future terrorists already part of the structure of French society. Also, how exactly is France supposed to send any kind of “subtle signal” to the people of the US that if Kerry is elected, they’ll play ball in the middle east? Anyone knowledgeable on history and politics won’t believe them, and any “signal” strong enough to be picked up on by Joe Six-Pack would cause a massive pro-Bush backlash amongst people who are considering holding their noses and voting for Kerry. The hint that a foreign government, especially one that is widely viewed with distaste by many Americans, like France’s, is trying to influence the election in one candidate’s favor will have people standing in line to vote for his opponent. Your post is internally contradictory and makes no sense. Wanna try again? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/107 "2004-04-21T06:19:19Z")
> [@London\_Calling](#): > > What the hell are you prattling on about ? > > And just in case, shove “Uh, no…” up your teen nostrils and into your vacuous skull. > > Go play outside, don’t forget the uh… sunscreen, uh… kid. “Up my teen nostrils”? “Vacuous” as my skull may be, it’s a) the skull of somebody on your side, b) old enough not to be confused with a teenage skull, and c) the property of someone who is vastly your intellectual superior. Fuck off. The point is, you can go around blaming Bush all you want (I know I do) but YOUR government is just as responsible for the monumental fuck-up that is Gulf War II as mine is. Take some fucking responsibility for a change; the French and Russians (and Iraqis) ought to be the only ones chucking stones. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/108 "2004-04-21T07:30:56Z")
**Weirddave** Don’t call me “son” or I will smite thee. It’s not Kerry’s plan or future I’m considering. I’d only repeat earlier posts in that regard. My post adds to the discussion by introducing the possibility of external forces influencing the election outcome, _a la_ Carter/Reagan. I think it’s an analogy that will have occurred/will occur to many minds in the relevant places. It’s a reasonable possibility it will breed action. Of course I’m unable to describe the specific circumstances it might occur in. That said, if **Weirddave** still believes the war in Iraq is rationally connected to the “war on terror” or putting down “muslim extremists” then there’s too much work needed before we can begin a rational discussion. To the point: the Carter/Bush analogy I might be entirely wrong but it’s a discussion worth having. On the subtle signal point: Isn’t that exactly what happened with Carter/Reagan. I don’t recall any pro-Carter backlash there. My feeling is that it will become clear that resolution or progress on the Iraq issue will need a circuit breaker: The US people will pick up that this means turfing the current US administration, not out of appeasement, but in realisation that they have it all wrong. The other side of it is that the analogy may be even clearer, that is the Iraqis themselves communicate: “Progress provided you ditch Bush” A pride thing. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/109 "2004-04-21T13:30:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I can’t speak for Shodan, but the above is one of the stupidest things I’ve read on this board. Of course these people think Kerry is better for the job, you moron. That’s what the poll was asking. /sigh…I will attempt to type slowly so you can understand… My question to “I want to have GWB kids” Shodan was: Why must the board be considered LEFT because people think Kerry is better for the job?? Im not left leaning at all really, and I still think Kerry is better for the job. Hell, I think ANYONE would be better than GWB!!! Maybe the board isnt LEFT, they just dont think GWB is a good president? Whats with the labels? By saying the board is left leaning it seems like you already have dismissed anything anyone might say, because they are leftists! I hope that clears up what I was asking…dumbass. And yes I labled you, oh the irony… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/110 "2004-04-21T13:37:56Z")
> [@HumptysHamhole](#): > > So. My point stands. Please Kerry supporters – without bashing Bush, without slamming Republicans, tell me - What is Kerry about other than opposition to Bush? So far no one has been able to do this, including Kerry himself. Precisely. Nobody - nobody - on the SDMB really supports Kerry. Nobody on the SDMB is energized by his vision for America, nobody gives much of a shit what he thinks, nobody cares a fart in a hurricane about Kerry as Kerry. The entire basis for his appeal on the SDMB can be summed up in a phrase - “He isn’t Bush”. He is the last Democrat standing after the primaries. That’s all there is. Which is why pretty much all political threads on the SDMB focus 90% on Bush. People throw out a couple of weak posts denying what Kerry’s record shows him to be, and then, almost at once, like moths to the flame, they return to the endless, repetitious, masturbatory repetition of venting their hatred of Bush. Bush owns you people. He is the center and focus of your every political thought. You lefties are _obsessed_ with him. Kerry matters almost not at all. You can’t support his positions, because his positions don’t matter to you. He isn’t Bush, and he has been endorsed by the other major party. That’s all you care about. And you have no way of communicating with people who do not share your hatred. Since that hatred forms the basis for your “support” of Kerry, you lack the ability to communicate to anyone who doesn’t reflexively despise Bush. You can’t really defend what Kerry wants to do, because it doesn’t matter. If he is elected, he won’t be Bush. That is his platform, and it’s enough for the hysterical Left on the SDMB. > [@Airblairxxx](#): > > Conservatives have done an excellent job in calling anyone who disagrees with them “stupid”… This is just too easy. > [@Knorf](#): > > But based on most conservatives’ unabashed continuing support of Bush, I conclude that in general they are utterly lacking in ethical principles. > [@rjung](#): > > anyone who endorses George W. Bush at this point in time – especially given the fiascoes of the last four years – deserves to have the words “Not too bright” tattooed on their foreheads. > [@World Eater](#): > > I know plenty of people that like Bush, and you know what they all have in common? They’re all a bunch of close minded (SH is about to attack us :rolleyes)bigoted (let’s nuke the whole mid-east) idiots. > [@Opus1](#): > > Apparently it’s the stupid, er, I mean silent majority. > [@](#): > > What the fuck is going on? How could he be rising in the polls? > > 'Cuz folks is stoopid…if ignorant people weren’t allowed to vote, Kerry would win hands down. Pot, kettle, etc. > [@Binarydrone](#): > > Good, I hope that the deep unhappiness and division in this country give you a big 'ol boner. Not in the whole country. Just on the Left. We on the Right are neither unhappy, nor divided. That’s your problem. Although I cannot deny that I find it richly entertaining to see the loony Left in America pull out a pistol, remove a shoe, and point the gun at their instep. And hear Kerry say, “Ready…Aim…” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/111 "2004-04-21T13:50:48Z")
> [@Dob](#): > > My question to “I want to have GWB kids” Shodan was: Why must the board be considered LEFT because people think Kerry is better for the job?? Im not left leaning at all really, and I still think Kerry is better for the job. Hell, I think ANYONE would be better than GWB!!! Maybe the board isnt LEFT, they just dont think GWB is a good president? Whats with the labels? > > By saying the board is left leaning it seems like you already have dismissed anything anyone might say, because they are leftists! I hope that clears up what I was asking…dumbass. And yes I labled you, oh the irony… It’s not so much a label as a description. Anybody who hangs out here for any length of time knows that there are more liberals than conservatives. I don’t think anybody was surprised that Kerry won the poll in question, though some might have been surprised by how lopsided the numbers were. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/112 "2004-04-21T13:52:41Z")
> [@Dob](#): > > /sigh…I will attempt to type slowly so you can understand… > > My question to “I want to have GWB kids” Shodan was: Why must the board be considered LEFT because people think Kerry is better for the job?? Because so many more people here think Kerry is better for the job than in the electorate. And Kerry (based on his record) is a leftist candidate. Check his ADA ratings. He is a liberal - one of, if not the, most liberal Senators in captivity. Support for Kerry on the SDMB is hugely out of line with his support in the rest of the country. Here Kerry is ahead by 80%, in the country at large he is behind by 5%. People in general do **not** think Kerry is “better for the job”. Except on the SDMB. If you think Dopers are going to rally behind a conservative challenger to Bush, you are obviously not familiar with the board. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/113 "2004-04-21T13:58:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Just on the Left. We on the Right are neither unhappy, nor divided. That’s your problem. I actually agree with that, **Shodan**. The wingnut brigade is absolutely ecstatic over killing “brown skinned people” and sniggering at weenie Liberals. Tempremental two year olds think that way too. ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/114 "2004-04-21T14:19:51Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > I actually agree with that, **Shodan**. > > The wingnut brigade is absolutely ecstatic over killing “brown skinned people” and sniggering at weenie Liberals. > > Tempremental two year olds think that way too. The same way compassionate liberals were ecstatic about starving Iraqi children to death during sanctions? "… CBS followed up with a segment on 60 Minutes that repeated the numbers and depicted sanctions as a murderous assault on children. This was the program in which UN ambassador (and later Secretary of State) Madeleine Albright, when asked about these numbers, coldly stated, “The price is worth it.” " Estimates range from 300 to 600K deaths due to sanctions. Guess I shouldn’t be too hard on the liberals, they only had 8 years to stop it. [http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011203&s=cortright](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011203&s=cortright) ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/115 "2004-04-21T14:27:01Z")
> [@Balduran](#): > > The same way compassionate liberals were ecstatic about starving Iraqi children to death during sanctions? > > "… CBS followed up with a segment on 60 Minutes that repeated the numbers and depicted sanctions as a murderous assault on children. This was the program in which UN ambassador (and later Secretary of State) Madeleine Albright, when asked about these numbers, coldly stated, “The price is worth it.” " > > Estimates range from 300 to 600K deaths due to sanctions. Guess I shouldn’t be too hard on the liberals, they only had 8 years to stop it. > > [http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011203&s=cortright](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011203&s=cortright) I ain’t gonna argue with you over that. The sanctions were wrong too. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/116 "2004-04-21T14:28:14Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Stop the fucking world at let me off. Bye. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/117 "2004-04-21T14:28:25Z")
Conservatives are idiots! Conservatives are bigots! We the liberals of the SDMB are the last bit of sanity on earth! I pledge allegiance to the unarguably correct tenants of liberalism! Anyone who disagrees with our orthodoxy requires too much reeducation to be worth arguing with! Yippee! (wow, this thread really took off) > [@](#): > > Why must the board be considered LEFT because people think Kerry is better for the job?? Im not left leaning at all really, and I still think Kerry is better for the job. Hell, I think ANYONE would be better than GWB!!! Maybe the board isnt LEFT, they just dont think GWB is a good president? Whats with the labels? Left and right are relative. You may not be left leaning compared to others on this board, buc considering that almost all Dopers support Kerry while the nation slightly favors Bush, the board is obviously left-leaning. > [@](#): > > The wingnut brigade is absolutely ecstatic over killing “brown skinned people” Cite for your projection of your own bigotry onto your political opponent? And I love how you worked a racial slur into your next sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/118 "2004-04-21T14:29:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > …Not in the whole country. Just on the Left. We on the Right are neither unhappy, nor divided. That’s your problem. > > Although I cannot deny that I find it richly entertaining to see the loony Left in America pull out a pistol, remove a shoe, and point the gun at their instep. > > And hear Kerry say, “Ready…Aim…” > > Regards, > Shodan And I guess this is where you loose me. How can you find this entertaining? You are literally deriving pleasure from the unhappiness of millions of people. I will totally agree with you that the Right has a more uniform consensus than the Left, but even amongst the argumentative Left there is a consensus that the way that the Right is taking us is not the way that we want to go. That means that the country is deeply divided. This may seem like a point too obvious to even mention, but it seems to have escaped you. Another obvious point is that a country so deeply divided is a Bad Thing™. I am sure that there are things that the Left could do better, but this smug attitude that I am seeing from the Right is clearly not helping. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/119 "2004-04-21T14:31:30Z")
This message board _is_ more leftist than the US electorate, but perhaps only because of its international input. The US is the most right-wing country in the industrialised democratic world, save perhaps for Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055/120 "2004-04-21T14:33:46Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > I ain’t gonna argue with you over that. The sanctions were wrong too. I didn’t think you would. I was just trying to make the point that just because conservatives support the war doesn’t mean they enjoy the killing of Iraqis and more than you enjoy the starving of children during sanctions. In fact some of us supported the war because it would end sanctions and save many more lives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-gwb-be-leading-in-the-polls/241055.md?page=7)