# How can Madonna Badger not kill herself or go insane? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 29, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687 "2011-12-29T01:05:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/21 "2011-12-29T14:12:16Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Smoke alarms are important enough that I would have thought battery-powered dectectors would be in place until such time as permanent wiring could be installed. I can’t imagine living in a house that has zero smoke alarms of any kind (other articles have confirmed there were no working smoke alarms in the house at the time of the fire). > . Yeah, what’s a smoke alarm cost? $20? I can’t imagine having a family and not bothering to buy one. Such a simple cheap way to protect your family. An aunt of mine lost here 1, 2 and three year old in fire around the time I was born. Not sure how you could ever go on with your life. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/22 "2011-12-29T14:20:17Z")
> [@](#): > > How can Madonna Badger not kill herself or go insane? Divine intervention. That’s how it was with me. (But I’ve never gone through anything close to what Madonna Badger must be going through.) ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/23 "2011-12-29T14:51:12Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Divine intervention. I dunno, no matter how many times I watch _Female Trouble_ or _Pink Flamingos_, Divine can only cheer me up for so long. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/24 "2011-12-29T14:54:07Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > What a terrible tragedy. Who puts fireplace leavings in a bag? This is the really mind-blowing part of this. Fires happen, people die, terrible tragedies occur all day every day, but putting burning embers in a bag then in the trash has got to be one of, if not _the most_ **GALACTICALLY** STUPID things I’ve ever heard in my life. What. the. FUCK?!?! ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/25 "2011-12-29T14:56:30Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I dunno, no matter how many times I watch _Female Trouble_ or _Pink Flamingos_, Divine can only cheer me up for so long. I guess divine (godly) intervention could come in the form of "Divine " himself. Stranger things have happened. The ways are mysterious. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/26 "2011-12-29T15:34:31Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > This is the really mind-blowing part of this. Fires happen, people die, terrible tragedies occur all day every day, but putting burning embers in a bag then in the trash has got to be one of, if not _the most_ **GALACTICALLY** STUPID things I’ve ever heard in my life. What. the. FUCK?!?! I think I’ve told this on these boards before, but I knew a girl in college who, after a small (legal) BBQ cookout put the cooled (not burning) embers **into the recycling bin** next to the mailboxes. It was full of paper, and she did not think to pour water over the embers. :smack: It did not end as badly as this story, but firefighters did have to be called for the smallish blaze, so, yes, people really are this monumentally and galactically stupid. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/27 "2011-12-29T15:39:00Z")
I don’t know how the survivors go on…a couple weeks before Christmas a sister and brother ages 16 &14 were killed when their subaru went under the back of a stopped school bus. cell phone use is suspected to be the cause but they will never know. Barely one week later the parents are leading a funeral procession, Mom is walking & holding the reins of the daughter’s riderless horse, her boots backwards in the stirrups. Dad is holding his son’s fly rod. They seemd calm, almost smiling, maybe boosted by the outpouring of love and affection - I don’t know how they did that, how do they go on? They have to, for their kids memory…still…damn… ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/28 "2011-12-29T16:35:06Z")
> [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](#): > > I’m suspicious of the boyfriend’s story. It was said that he brought two of the children down to the 2nd floor but “lost them in the heat”. I assume they were the 7 year old twins as I can’t imagine them leaving each other’s sides. Nor can I imagine a seven year old not grabbing on to his hand and refusing to let go. I don’t understand how they could be “lost”, yet he managed to get out. I’m not saying that he’s a coward, just that the story may have been embellished a little by him or the press to explain how those two ended up outside when nobody else did. I’ll be listening to hear if investigators do decide to focus on him more. However, I would suspect that the grandparents upon awakening to a fire would first try and find and call out to the grandchildren. If that happened when he was as he said leading them down, they may well have left him and tried to find their grandparents who they undoubtably knew better and trusted emphatically. They were all found to have been with the grandparents at or near the time of death. [QUOTE=Machine Elf] I don’t wish this horror upon Ms. Badger; she doesn’t deserve it. But I think she bears some responsibility for it. The tragic loss of her family will cause her endless grief by itself, but if I were in her shoes I would also feel a horrible sense of guilt for not providing the house with smoke alarms. [/QUOTE] From the article: _“Because Ms. Badger’s home was still being renovated, the city had not yet completed the inspection process **or issued a final certificate of approval for occupancy** , …”_ Yes, if you’re going to stay in a house that’s pre-determined to have a known safety issue, why would you not take reasonable steps to mitigate that danger? Grandad too, with his expertise in that area might should have been more insistent. All’s clear in hindsight but it just seems like such a reasonable step. ---
**Author:** ![Disheavel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Disheavel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disheavel)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/29 "2011-12-29T16:51:41Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > Yeah, what’s a smoke alarm cost? $20? I can’t imagine having a family and not bothering to buy one. Such a simple cheap way to protect your family. You can buy a pack of 4 for ~$20 at Lowe’s/Home Depot. (And yet, I have never moved into a place that had them already installed- except in apartments in NYC.) And a package of 9-volt batteries is what $10? and will last two years on 3 smoke detectors. So there is no excuse except laziness. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/30 "2011-12-29T17:31:00Z")
It is easy to sit in judgment, Disheavel; we weren’t there. I can’t think that laziness would be a factor. Thoughtlessness, maybe. Go re-read Aunt Pam’s post. I am so distressed over this event. I’ll just say this for the benefit of the OP and anyone else wondering how you go on: you just do. The family cited by Chela who lost two teenagers, I can nearly guarantee you, were completely numb. Until you’ve gone through something like this, you have no idea of the feeling of detachment and unreality that you enter in. Psychologically, I suppose, it protects you from, indeed, going insane. You may think that you’d commit suicide, easy, but it’s my belief that very few reasonably sound people, apart from the tragedy, see this as an option. You may feel like dying, yes, but can you really and truly carry out the steps necessary to complete such a final and horrific act? I lost my father, and then less than five years later, my firstborn child. I’m no stranger to this kind of tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/31 "2011-12-29T18:42:14Z")
Yeah, this is a horrible story and it’s been eating at me since I first heard it. I have to admit a teeny tiny part of me created a _Law & Order_ scenario where the mom and boyfriend were working together, but honestly, I think the only reason that came to me was because it was preferable to imagine her as a murderer than knowing that she’s a grief-stricken mother/daughter suffering so terribly. My parents lost their oldest child (my brother) due to an act of negligence that I know my mom never forgave herself for. My brother was 11 and had won several swimming medals. He and my sister (6 at the time) were in their backyard pool, with my mom watching, when she went into the house for something–I don’t know if it was a phone call, something in the oven, whatever–and she asked my brother to look after his little sister. In that very brief interval, my brother was horsing around, went underwater, and somehow got his legs trapped in the ladder leading out of the pool. My sister was too little to know what was going on, but she was scared when he didn’t come back up after a couple of minutes, so she yelled for mom. Mom ran out and had to dive in, disentangle her son from the ladder, and drag his body out of the pool. He was dead. She never, ever forgave herself for being so foolish. They went to no counseling, though they did send my sister to a shrink for a little while right after the event. (This was 1963, and there was still stigma, especially to my first generation immigrant parents, in seeking outside help.) I think the only way she was able to continue was because she had another child to look after, and because my father (who was at work at the time of the accident) managed to avoid blaming her. Though I don’t know how their marriage survived either; how could you not blame your spouse, even just a tiny bit, for this? But I never heard my father assign any blame to her, at least not aloud. (I didn’t even know about any of this until I was ten – not even that I’d had a brother.) About a year after the accident my other sister was born, and I think that also helped somewhat. Anyway, she was always burdened by this and I think when she got cancer, she was almost relieved because she’d expected to get punished for what happened for twenty years prior. Yet as awful as this story is, it’s in no way equal to what Ms. Badger must be going through. But yes, somehow people do go on. She’ll need some serious counseling and support from somewhere, whether it’s a psychologist or religious figure or anyone who can provide comfort to her. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/32 "2011-12-29T18:49:43Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Divine intervention. That’s how it was with me. (But I’ve never gone through anything close to what Madonna Badger must be going through.) If God were going to intervene to save somebody, it would have been nice if he’d done so during the fire. I’m just saying. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/33 "2011-12-29T19:01:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Around 3 a.m. on Sunday, \*\*Mr. Borcina \*\*removed embers from the fireplace and put them in a bag, which he placed in either the house’s mudroom or an adjacent trash enclosure, said Barry Callahan, Stamford’s chief fire marshal. Just to be clear, it was the contractor/family friend that caused this. A real stupid mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/34 "2011-12-29T19:38:48Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > If God were going to intervene to save somebody, it would have been nice if he’d done so during the fire. > > I’m just saying. God saves people from all kinds of calamity, but no one notices those stories as much as the gruesome tragedies. Newspapers have mostly bad news in them for a reason. Tragedies happen and there isn’t always consolation. Does God actively cause them or passively allow them to happen? I don’t know. Does God punish us by taking our loved ones from us us housefires and car-accidents and such? I don’t know. Some people have faith that endures events like this while the faith of others is utterly destroyed by events like this. Make of that what you will. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/35 "2011-12-29T20:58:49Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > God saves people from all kinds of calamity, but no one notices those stories as much as the gruesome tragedies. Newspapers have mostly bad news in them for a reason. Tragedies happen and there isn’t always consolation. Does God actively cause them or passively allow them to happen? I don’t know. Does God punish us by taking our loved ones from us us housefires and car-accidents and such? I don’t know. Some people have faith that endures events like this while the faith of others is utterly destroyed by events like this. Make of that what you will. Epicurus: > [@](#): > > Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? > Then he is not omnipotent. > Is he able, but not willing? > Then he is malevolent. > Is he both able and willing? > Then whence cometh evil? > Is he neither able nor willing? > Then why call him God? Patton Oswalt: > [@](#): > > [Sky Cake!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w) ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/36 "2011-12-29T21:13:30Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Epicurus: > Patton Oswalt: The Epicurus quote assumes that man is superior to God. Very humanistic. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/37 "2011-12-29T23:00:23Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > The Epicurus quote assumes that man is superior to God. Very humanistic. :rolleyes: Well, man exists. So there’s that. But I’ll stop detailing the pity-party thread. ---
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/38 "2011-12-29T23:26:09Z")
No matter how bad your Christmas was, there’s always somebody who’s had a worse one. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Kerrman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/45deac/32.png) [@Joe\_Kerrman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Kerrman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/39 "2011-12-30T02:15:54Z")
Other [stories](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/nyregion/after-fatal-fire-in-stamford-a-house-is-demolished.html) mention that one of the daughters had “special educational needs,” so she may have been even tougher than the average child to help out in an emergency. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687/40 "2011-12-30T02:33:18Z")
> [@Neidhart](#): > > No matter how bad your Christmas was, there’s always somebody who’s had a worse one. ☹ That’s a wise observation, and very true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-madonna-badger-not-kill-herself-or-go-insane/607687.md?page=3)