# How can one even hope to reason with this kind of Muslim? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 21, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608 "2015-03-21T15:37:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/41 "2015-03-21T21:39:48Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > But you must realize that we are facing a clash of civilizations in which at least tens of millions (more likely hundreds of millions) of Muslims agree with these ideas. No, “we” aren’t. Beyond that the guy you’re referring to isn’t remotely representative of Muslims in Canada or the US and those of us that you should be afraid of aren’t going to be having stupid arguments on YouTube message boards. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/42 "2015-03-21T21:40:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agreed. People think that Saudi Arabia and Iran are typical, but they’re the exception. > > Beyond that, lots of countries in “the West” including Valteron’s beloved Canada don’t have separation of Church and State. > > I’ll never understand someone who flies off the handle at finding a Bible in a hotel room, quakes in fear at some bitter loser ranting on YouTube, but has no problem with his tax dollars supporting Catholic schools. Who says I have no problem with financing of Catholic schools? The Catholic schools to which you refer are in the Province of Ontario. I live in Quebec, which has abolished religious schools. But yes, I am part of the movement to abolish Catholic school funding in Ontario. It is difficult because Catholic schools in Ontario are constitutionally guaranteed. But we will succeed. Having said that, do you see ANY quantitative or qualitative difference between financing Catholic schools in Ontario and Muslim States that murder or imprison apostates? Do you consider both to be on an equal plane? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/43 "2015-03-21T21:46:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, “we” aren’t. > > Beyond that the guy you’re referring to isn’t remotely representative of Muslims in Canada or the US and those of us that you should be afraid of aren’t going to be having stupid arguments on YouTube message boards. May I ask when you did your last census of “those (Muslims) that (I) should be afraid of” in Canada and the US? How was this done, what methods were used. Can you share some of the data with us? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/44 "2015-03-21T21:54:10Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Now of course I will be told that the plural of “anecdote” is not data, but quite simply, the killing or torture of people who want to leave Islam in Muslim countries is perhaps poorly covered by the media but by no means unusual. . this is absolutely false, it is by no means usual in the majority of the islamic countries to torture or kill the non practicing muslims. in fact to the contrary most people in my adult life in both the african and the arab muslim countries are quite happy to ignore this. And even joke about it as we did in my office here in a country ruled by amir al muminine as there is a staff member who is very clear about his non belief - as we talked about believers in some silly context and then everyone laughs and says, “but not you Hamid” It is a joking relationship and it is not unusual. Your pretend to speak about ‘extremist muslims’ but it is very obvious that this is merely a polite cover. > [@Valteron](#): > > …Muslim States that murder or imprison apostates? Do you consider both to be on an equal plane? For the rationale they are free to go on about the Saudis and the Islamic republic. > [@Ravenman](#): > > How do you suppose a moderate Muslim is to reason with someone who more or less thinks they are Quislings in the vast Islamic threat to Western civilization? there is no such reasoning, it is always obvious to me what is the real meaning of these diatribes. > [@Valteron](#): > > Sure, Muslims understand perfectly well what is meant by separation of religion and government, and how it works. But to enact such a separation would be to accept the idea that Islam is just one religious opinion among many, and the vast majority of the governments of the countries with the Islamic majority have the legal and the governmental systems that are based on secular law. They have law systems no different in this regard than a majority of the european countries or even the Israel… Whatever paranoid fantasies might hold otherwise. > [@](#): > > The problem is that Islam is fundamentally antithetical to concepts such as human rights, democracy and the sovereignty of the individual. and he wishes to pretend his rants about muslims is not applied to all of us. It is a fake position adopted for rhetoric only. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agreed. People think that Saudi Arabia and Iran are typical, but they’re the exception. exactly. > [@](#): > > Beyond that, lots of countries in “the West” including Valteron’s beloved Canada don’t have separation of Church and State. Yes no more than the majority of islamic majority countries. > [@](#): > > I’ll never understand someone who flies off the handle at finding a Bible in a hotel room, quakes in fear at some bitter loser ranting on YouTube, but has no problem with his tax dollars supporting Catholic schools. I do not also. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/45 "2015-03-21T21:55:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > **Val** - You’ve started several threads in which you state quite stridently that moderate, peaceful Muslims are marginalized by a sinister and powerful network of Muslims who are dedicated to destroying us innocent Westerners, and if I remember right, you may think they stand a decent chance of succeeding if we don’t take more assertive action against this existential threat to modern society. > > How do you suppose a moderate Muslim is to reason with someone who more or less thinks they are Quislings in the vast Islamic threat to Western civilization? I did not say they were marginalized. I simply pointed out that a cult, culture or nation can be a threat without its quiet majority being on board. Even during the Crusades when Christian knights were massacring people wholesale, most Christians at home in Europe were probably nice people. The vast majority of Chinese are peaceful, non-violent people. But Mao killed some 80 million. The majority of Germans from 1933 to 1945 were kind, decent people who did not want war. But you know what Hitler did. The Russian people are kind and peaceful. But Stalin did what he did. That is how dangerous ideologies work. They do not need 100% of their people involved in their aggressions. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/46 "2015-03-21T21:56:59Z")
I do not see a debate anyway, it is yet another of his rants against the muslims except he briefly tried to pretend in a conversation I do not believe is any more real than the silly “the westerns are converting to islam, here are some letters” that the annoying salafi preachers spread around masjids to make their rhetorical point. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/47 "2015-03-21T22:08:55Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > this is absolutely false, it is by no means usual in the majority of the islamic countries to torture or kill the non practicing muslims. in fact to the contrary most people in my adult life in both the african and the arab muslim countries are quite happy to ignore this. And even joke about it as we did in my office here in a country ruled by amir al muminine as there is a staff member who is very clear about his non belief - as we talked about believers in some silly context and then everyone laughs and says, “but not you Hamid” It is a joking relationship and it is not unusual. Only Saudi Arabia and Iran, you say. Perhaps you should look up the case of Palestinian Waleed Al-Husseini, imprisoned and tortured for a year for being an atheist. Or Maybe you missed the charming video from Afghanistan (see YouTube) showing a mob of young men beating to death a mentally ill woman who burned a page from the Koran. Thjs happened a few days ago. As the Wkipedia article states: “Over twenty (20) Muslim nations have laws that declare apostasy by Muslims as a crime, many with death penalty.[20] In addition, some Islamic countries do not have apostasy laws, but have prosecuted individuals or minorities for apostasy using broadly-defined blasphemy laws.[109] In many nations, the Hisbah doctrine of Islam has traditionally allowed any Muslim to accuse another Muslim or ex-Muslim for beliefs that may harm Islamic society. This principle has been used in countries such as Egypt, Pakistan and others to bring blasphemy charges against apostates.[110]” . ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/48 "2015-03-21T22:14:00Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > To my knowledge **inconvenient** claims don’t require extraordinary evidence. Now of course I will be told that the plural of “anecdote” is not data, but quite simply, the killing or torture of people who want to leave Islam in Muslim countries is perhaps poorly covered by the media but by no means unusual. You can get lots of examples from the various councils of ex-Muslims in the west. You have Raif Badawi, but many others who are less well-known such as Palestinian Waleed Al-Husseini, who was imprisoned and tortured by the allegedly secular and tolerant Palestinian Authority under Mahmoud Abbas. There is a YouTube circulating right now showing a mentally ill woman in Kabul, Afghanistan, being beaten to death by a mob of youths for having burned some pages from the Koran. And of course, many atheists keep quiet until they can flee Muslim countries and make it to the west. Finally, cases of Muslims being “honour killed” in western countries that have large Muslim populations is not unknown. Sure, but you need to consider why the numbers of apostates that are executed in those countries are too small for anyone to bother counting. Let’s say 80% of the world’s Muslims believe apostates should be killed. So that’s 1.2 billion people. How many Muslims in those countries are apostates? One percent? That’s 10 million apostates. How many of them would you expect to be killed each year if the Pew numbers were to be believed? One percent a year? Where are the 100,000 apostates you’d expect to be seeing stoned to death every year based on the Pew survey? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/49 "2015-03-21T22:14:09Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I did not say they were marginalized. I simply pointed out that a cult, culture or nation can be a threat without its quiet majority being on board. > > Even during the Crusades when Christian knights were massacring people wholesale, most Christians at home in Europe were probably nice people. > > The vast majority of Chinese are peaceful, non-violent people. But Mao killed some 80 million. The majority of Germans from 1933 to 1945 were kind, decent people who did not want war. But you know what Hitler did. The Russian people are kind and peaceful. But Stalin did what he did. That is how dangerous ideologies work. They do not need 100% of their people involved in their aggressions. Maybe my point wasn’t clear. Let me try another run at it. If one makes a spectrum of political views on the threat of Islam, you’re quite a way toward one end of the spectrum. You certainly aren’t the most extreme, but I hope you would recognize that you’re not moderate in your views. Perhaps you see a little bit of Cassandra in your warnings, especially given how they usually go over on this forum. And when the issue of terrorism comes up, your comparisons are to regimes that killed tens of millions of people, or threatened hundreds of millions. I just don’t believe most people believe that Salafism is a threat in the same league as Germany’s attempted genocide or the USSR’s nuclear threats to the West. How is a moderate Muslim to reason with you when you jump to such extreme analogies? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/50 "2015-03-21T22:14:47Z")
[Relevant thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=752134)from a few months ago. My two cents from that thread, your options are: 1. Quit fighting a battle you can’t win and go play video games. 2. Make it clear that you disagree with his axiom set and so that while you will never convince him, he will never convince you, effectively calling it a draw. 3. Prove that his axiom set lacks self consistency, by going to the Koran and pointing out that the drivel he is spouting is not accurately representing the teachings of Mohammad. As I see it this last bit is the only chance of actually succeeding, but still will be a long shot, since asa with many holy books, you can selectively interpret it to say pretty much anything you want it to, and he’s had more experience doing this than you. So I would stick with option 1. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/51 "2015-03-21T22:19:38Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Sure, but you need to consider why the numbers of apostates that are executed in those countries are too small for anyone to bother counting. Let’s say 80% of the world’s Muslims believe apostates should be killed. So that’s 1.2 billion people. How many Muslims in those countries are apostates? One percent? That’s 10 million apostates. How many of them would you expect to be killed each year if the Pew numbers were to be believed? One percent a year? Where are the 100,000 apostates you’d expect to be seeing stoned to death every year based on the Pew survey? So how many apostates ARE killed or imprisoned in the Muslim world avery year? Do you have figures? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/52 "2015-03-21T22:21:27Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Only Saudi Arabia and Iran, you say. I did not say anything about only the Saudi and the Iranians in relationship to the question. I have highlighted the question about the legal systems and the secular basis of the governments. We can all play the googling game for the atrocities. Maybe to return to a prior threads series of yours I should google around to crimes committed by gay canadian serial murders. This will obviously prove gay canadians are dangerous. or finding the christian atrocity against gays in the east africa… does not tell me anything in reality. I do not need your wiki-googling to know the legal systems here. It is certain in the conflict zone countries you will find atrocities to wave as a flag. It does not say anything about the lives of the majority of muslims living in non conflict zone countries or how the non practicing and in the eyes of the takfiri the apostates are living their lives. Your paranoia and hysteria are their own objectives. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/53 "2015-03-21T22:23:36Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > I think he’s done a very good job of putting himself in a situation that can’t really be argued with. Difficult to outframe it, as he already states that he knows other viewpoints, but rejects them. If you enter into his worldview in order to argue, you would have to challenge the basic assumption, which is that there is a superior moral code. For that you would need to challenge the Quran or its author which can’t be done, as Mohammed was a prophet, i.e. sent by God, so even that would be circular reasoning. > > **I suggest not discussing it further as there is nothing to discuss.** That right there is the doom of all mankind, not discussing it does not make his vile beliefs go away. The discussion may never convince him, but they may persuade others to steer clear of his thought process, and that over time is still a victory, because changing the beliefs of men is often achieved one funeral at a time. Let him die with those beliefs and not be replaced in the same numbers, but do NOT just let his arguments stand unmolested and left to fester and rot in the minds of other muslims. That cannot be a reasonable policy or stance. Damn the futility of changing axiomatic beliefs, when the consequences are so destructive and dire you go in there and start sweeping the sand from that desert. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/54 "2015-03-21T22:24:32Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > [R](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=752134) > > As I see it this last bit is the only chance of actually succeeding, but still will be a long shot, The real option is to stop making up fictional conversations. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/55 "2015-03-21T22:25:41Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I did not say anything about only the Saudi and the Iranians in relationship to the question. I have highlighted the question about the legal systems and the secular basis of the governments. > > We can all play the googling game for the atrocities. Maybe to return to a prior threads series of yours I should google around to crimes committed by gay canadian serial murders. This will obviously prove gay canadians are dangerous. > > or finding the christian atrocity against gays in the east africa… does not tell me anything in reality. > > I do not need your wiki-googling to know the legal systems here. > > It is certain in the conflict zone countries you will find atrocities to wave as a flag. It does not say anything about the lives of the majority of muslims living in non conflict zone countries or how the non practicing and in the eyes of the takfiri the apostates are living their lives. Your paranoia and hysteria are their own objectives. Just out of curiosity, what Muslim country do you live in? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/56 "2015-03-21T22:27:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > How is a moderate Muslim to reason with you when you jump to such extreme analogies? it is clear that there is no such reasoning and any pretenstion to only talk about extremist views in islam clearly fall away as his replies go on. It is not different than an early nazi rhetorician pretending not to hate all the jews, only the exploitive ones. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/57 "2015-03-21T22:35:14Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > The real option is to stop making up fictional conversations. Would you like to see my “fictional” conversation? Please go to YouTube to [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFN3i6YxyUc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFN3i6YxyUc) The title of the video is: CFI Statement on Saudi Arabia and the Istanbul Process at the 28th UN Human Rights Council - 3/17/15 You will see e\very one of my comments and the comments of the Canadian Muslim in question in the message board. The CFI has also fought against the attempt by the Muslim bloc at the UN to attack western freedoms by getting all nations to pass anti-blasphemy laws. Luckily, this was rebuffed by freedom-loving countries. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/58 "2015-03-21T22:38:12Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > it is clear that there is no such reasoning and any pretenstion to only talk about extremist views in islam clearly fall away as his replies go on. > > It is not different than an early nazi rhetorician pretending not to hate all the jews, only the exploitive ones. Considering the unending Muslim hostility to the very existence of Israel for the past 70 years, my I submit that you are in no position to preach at others about anti-Semitism. ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/59 "2015-03-21T22:38:22Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > That right there is the doom of all mankind, not discussing it does not make his vile beliefs go away. The discussion may never convince him, but they may persuade others to steer clear of his thought process, and that over time is still a victory, because changing the beliefs of men is often achieved one funeral at a time. Let him die with those beliefs and not be replaced in the same numbers, but do NOT just let his arguments stand unmolested and left to fester and rot in the minds of other muslims. That cannot be a reasonable policy or stance. Damn the futility of changing axiomatic beliefs, when the consequences are so destructive and dire you go in there and start sweeping the sand from that desert. The point was to propose an answer to the last statement by the OP’s adversary, not to look at the wider picture of potential converts who might be reading their conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608/60 "2015-03-21T22:40:12Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > it is clear that there is no such reasoning and any pretenstion to only talk about extremist views in islam clearly fall away as his replies go on. do the muslims with “extremist” views use the same copy of the Koran that you use? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-one-even-hope-to-reason-with-this-kind-of-muslim/715608.md?page=4)