That was a simulpost. Don’t run away just yet. I promise I’ll get back on track.
Notthemama – I hadn’t read your post before I went back to the OP 
I am not one to totally get blindsided < hehe>
No, you have a lopgical problem. To show that someone has contradicted themselves, all that is needed is to find two statements that can’t both be true. There is no need to look at everything the person believes.
I said:
That statement didn’t make a lot of sense, because the politicians let the lobbyists bamboozle them in voting their way.
I think that if the lobbyist idea were to be taken out of the political system, a politician would be more likely to vote based on the promises of his/her constituants.
As for Houston’s pollution problem, I would gather that the public outcry for having to spend extra time every two years for vehicle checks was not the reason but was more about industries that emit pollution lobbying the state government.
That’s what I tend to think is more likely the situation. How accurate that is I don’t know…
Many of us would much rather have a man in office who has a moral reference point from which to deviate. If GWB’s ‘religious doctrine’ as you so sarcastically put it, gives him a standard from which to operate, that is a good thing.
On the other hand, your choice is algore, an individual with no such belief system, rather just another moral relativist ready to employ situational ethics to whatever ends may suit him at any given moment. You will not like the results.
For something to be right or wrong, there must exist a basis, or a standard for that judgement, without which you have rule by popular opinion, effected by the use of power.
::
Oh and BTW Calif,
I assume that because I am a Libertarian, I am not qualified to discuss issues regarding the current political system?
Because the system, as it is set up now, goes against my political beliefs?
Or am I allowed to debate the issue based on my knowledge whether or not I believe in the system?
[sarcastic]You obviously are THE only one whose opinion matters out of over 5000 registered members. So I am asking you if I am qualified to be in this discussion?[/sarcastic]
Politicians adopt a platform which will increase their chances for election. Upon election, they abandon those tenets. The wishes of the campaign supporters, specifically those with the funds, are employed in lieu of the assertions which resulted in their election. The term liar is most fitting.
“Hey you, give me money. Hey you, vote for me. Now I can do what I want.”
Now why would they do that?
No point to make with this quote. I just like to look at it.
I think techchick68 is right. At least partly. Removing bribes from the system certainly could not hurt.
I, personally, think that the problem goes much deeper. As in: All the way back to the constitution. But, while treating syptoms is considered bad medicine, I would rather the docs gave me something for the pain while they were scratching their heads.
As long as they didn’t give me the painkillers and then forget about me.
Campain finance reform is good. I support it.
But bribery is not the sole problem with American government. I would like to see the lack of soveriegnty addressed.
Peace
2sense,
I agree the problem goes deeper, I was simply pointing out one major flaw with how politicians conduct their duties to the people elect them.
Personally, I would like to see the system completely revamped, based on the Constitution. How to achieve the government, I see as proper government based on the Constitution, would be a tedious task because the system is so jumbled.
To me, it’s like the gold chain that is tangled up so severely, without carefully understanding of the loops and bends, chances are you can’t undo the mess and possibly mess it up further.
techchick:
I don’t disagree with you, but there is another component, without which no amount of restructuring will correct the problem.
Personal ethics. A moral sense of right and wrong based on a higher standard. To many of us, that higher standard is God. This philosophy was intrinsic to the founding of this country, but has been cast aside as irrelevent. We are now reaping the results of this folly.
::
Aren’t the lying politicians, which are predominately Christian, the problem? Your higher standard appears to be pretty low from where I stand.
Natural selection. The politicians who lie in order to appeal to the largest number of constituents end up getting the most votes and are more likely to survive the political game. So the big guys like Gore, Bush, and Clinton are all experienced politicians with many years of dishonesty and deception under their belts. Had they told the truth and stuck with a consistent political platform, they would have been eliminated many years ago. Even McCain, so called straight talker, recently admitted to lying about his stance on the confederate flag in South Carolina so he wouldn’t lose the primary election.
–JB
Thus sayeth Boomer:
Even if he doesn’t follow the standard?
As you may or may not know, Al Gore also professes to be a Christian–a Baptist, in fact. Just because he doesn’t say in debates that Jesus Christ is his favorite political philosopher, it doesn’t mean he isn’t a Christian (or that he claims to be, at least).
So let me get this straight–when Dubya claims to hold to a moral code and then deviates from it, it’s OK, because at least he has the moral code. But when Al Gore claims to hold a moral code and deviates from it, he is an evil moral relativist who will drown this country in the bog of situational ethics. Makes perfect sense to me! :rolleyes:
I’m getting really tired of hearing about how athiests cannot be moral because they have no standard of morality. Most atheists I know hold as fast as they can to ideas like 1.) Don’t hurt anybody, 2.) Love your neighbor, 3.) Do unto others as you would have them do unto you (These sound familiar?). Why is it any less valid to hold those beliefs because you think they’re the right thing to do rather than holding them because God will send you to Hell if you don’t?
Dr. J
“Seriously, baby, I can prescribe anything I want!” -Dr. Nick Riviera
I don’t know if this is kosher or not but this thread reminds me of a cartoon. This comic strip is the most popular in South Africa. It is very politically incorrect and shoots from the hip so if you’re easily offended don’t click.
http://www.mg.co.za/mg/m&e/2000/01/me20000101w.htm
Your witty one-liner can appear HERE!
O…O
=o=
Reading through this thread a few things come to mind.
First: Cal, not only did you overreact, you also hijacked this thread, proved to be very antagonistic, and never answered the original question.
Secondly: Politicians and lawyers lie because it is there job. Simple as that. And American have typically voted for people who can create the biggest most believable lies.
I personally respect Clinton a great deal, he is at least a convincing liar. I figure if someone is gonna lie, the least they could do is lie with some pizazz.
“The bitch, oh the bitch, the bitch is back…I’m a bitch cuz I’m better then you, it’s the way that I move
The things that I do…” Elton John
“People try to tell me thoughts they cannot defend…” The Moody Blues
“To start, press any key. Where’s the any key?” Homer Simpson.
I agree that 2sense is right. Politicians lie because we let them. Sometimes it gets to be too much even for us. For example, here in Illinois, Governor George Ryan is having a heck of a time. Now, he may not be lying – I can’t say for sure – but things don’t look good for him due to the extensive corruption under him when he was Secretary of State (just before he was elected to governor). And the public is making its opinions known in polls to the point that I would wager he will not even bother to seek re-election (or election to a different office).
How can we do that nationally? How bad does it have to get?
Oh, and incidentally, CalifLiar: Others have already pointed out your lies here, so there really isn’t any reason for me to do so further. Go away. You’re not contributing anything.
Politicians lie because they have been allowed to do so. The media for the most part fails to report blatant lies as blatant lies. I am not sure if they do so because the think that reporting a lie as a lie would damage their objectivity, or if they are just too dumb to recognize a lie when they hear one.
Of course, we the people are at fault because too few of us bother to participate in government and demand it perform better and its participants not lie to us. Rather than pay attention to what the politicians are doing to us, we sit on our asses and let them lie to us because we are more comfortable with the lies than with the truth.
I don’t believe in sin (specific Bad Things which are punished by God) but I do believe in ethics (standards, in balance between societal and individual thought, which are or ought to be punished by a guilty conscience).
It’s possible to claim that someone has done something unethical without claiming that they’re a sinner. I do it all the time.
PatrickM said:
I dunno. Some of the best-known journalists got that way because they reported lies, and proved it. Now, admittedly these lies were connected with major scandals, but they were still lies. Maybe it’s a case of having so many out there.
But, frankly, I think it’s a case of the public not caring to hear about it. “Oh, look, Martha, another article in the paper about some politicians lying. Now let me see what my horoscope says…”
Yup, I think that about sums it up. I remember when Mondale campaigned saying, "Look, folks, we’re gonna need to raise taxes. That’s just the way it is, and I’m telling you the truth. We see how well that was received. Of course, taxes were raised and he was telling the truth, but people didn’t want to hear about it. They’d rather be lied to and then have the same thing happen anyway. Makes me wonder if there is intelligent life on this planet sometimes…
Hey, and David B is a moderator. Wow.
Another example is Paul Tsongas. He talked about the need for sacrifice to reduce the national debt. He also went into Florida and said Social Security needed to be reformed.
In FLORIDA for Christ’s sake. The man had balls. Of course he got clobbered.
Few politicians seem willing to follow his brave example. I wonder why?
Peace