# How can some people go to jail for 2+ years for being on To Catch A Predator? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862 "2011-10-07T03:24:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/363 "2011-10-12T03:02:16Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > This is lunatic asylum stuff. Really. **tomndebb** already instructed you to stop making comments like this. ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/364 "2011-10-12T03:03:40Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > No, you seem to be under the impression that mental illness is a defense against criminal behavior even if the perp knows right from wrong. It isn’t. > > Whether or not someone is mentally ill has no bearing on whether or not they are a criminal. Whether or not someone is mentally ill has no bearing on whether or not they are a criminal. Whether or not someone is mentally ill has no bearing on whether or not they are a criminal. Whether or not someone is mentally ill has no bearing on whether or not they are a criminal. Whether or not someone is mentally ill has no bearing on whether or not they are a criminal. \*\*Whether or not someone is mentally ill has no bearing on whether or not they are a criminal. \*\* > > **DO YOU GET IT NOW???** Wow. Stop putting words in my mouth. **You clearly have your own issues to deal with.** At no point did I say that it had a bearing on whether or not someone was a criminal. I am sick of you and Troppus ignoring the fact that I have consistently said that any mental illness does not excuse them of their crimes. My only concern is that jail does not reform these people. There seems to be an irrational belief that a person with mental illness would somehow receive LESS punishment, but it is a fact they would likely spend more time in jail because they would have to prove they were mentally well: > [@](#): > > In addition, psychiatric notes in a man’s jacket (file) can cause a parole board to postpone release indefinitely. > [@](#): > > people can be held indefinitely, for a huge range of offences, until rehabilitation has been administered and somehow proven. > [@](#): > > Once isolated, continued misconduct-often connected to mental illness-can keep them there indefinitely. It seems to me that you would all prefer shorter sentences where the offender never receives the proper treatment or proper evaluation upon release. Calling it mental illness does not make their actions any more sympathetic in my opinion. As I said earlier, if one crosses the line I lose all sympathy for them, but I don’t think we should ignore any issues they may have, release them, and have them potentially re-offend. If your own interpretation of ‘mentally ill’ is an entirely sympathetic person, with absolutely no control over their actions, then you are extremely naive. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/365 "2011-10-12T03:10:56Z")
> [@IAmError403](#): > > My only concern is that jail does not reform these people. Apparently, neither does anything else. ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/366 "2011-10-12T03:17:33Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Apparently, neither does anything else. This is utter ignorance. Read: > [@](#): > > Various forms of punishment are used to discourage responses to deviant sexual imagery. For example, when arousal to inappropriate cues reaches a predetermined level, the offender might receive a mild electric shock or be exposed to extremely noxious odours. Another method based on biofeedback procedures allows the offender to monitor his own responses by providing signals at the onset of arousal to deviant behaviours. By anticipating the signal the offender learns to reduce arousal to deviant cues and increase his arousal to more appropriate cues. An alternative method assists the offender to force the recall of unpleasant thoughts or experiences when sexual excitement to the wrong type of sexual behaviour begins to occur. > > Generally, **behavioural techniques have been found to be effective in many studies.** Unfortunately, there has been concern among many experts that the methods produce only short-term changes in deviant sexual preferences. In a study conducted at the forensic psychiatric facility in Penetanguishene, Ontario, Dr. Vernon Quinsey and his colleagues used a combination of biofeedback and electric shock to treat a group of child molesters. Significant improvements were witnessed for most of the offenders who received the treatment. **Offenders who had experienced a reduction in arousal to sexual cues involving children maintained lower rates of reoffence for two years following treatment.** Unfortunately, the researchers discovered that initial treatment gains were reduced when the follow-up was extended beyond the two year period. > > There is some evidence, however, that recidivism in **treated offenders can be controlled for longer periods if periodic "booster’ treatments are administered following termination of the initial treatment.** > **[Treatment of Sex Offenders](https://www.helping-people.info/articles/robinson_treatment.htm)** I mentioned this earlier, but it seems most people who are commenting on this thread have only read the last few pages. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/367 "2011-10-12T03:24:43Z")
> [@IAmError403](#): > > **You clearly have your own issues to deal with.** Personal comments like this are not allowed in this forum. This is the last time I’m going to remind anybody of this. In the future I’m skipping ahead to warnings. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/368 "2011-10-12T03:26:26Z")
> [@IAmError403](#): > > It seems to me that you would all prefer shorter sentences where the offender never receives the proper treatment or proper evaluation upon release. Calling it mental illness does not make their actions any more sympathetic in my opinion. You are, as far as I can tell, making this up out of whole cloth. As far as I can tell, most everyone who’s expressed an opinion wants to see them punished for their crimes AND treated. > [@](#): > > As I said earlier, if one crosses the line I lose all sympathy for them, but I don’t think we should ignore any issues they may have, release them, and have them potentially re-offend. Everyone on TCAP crossed the line, by taking physical actions that were beyond a reasonable doubt intended to end with sex with an underaged person. ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/369 "2011-10-12T03:33:28Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > You are, as far as I can tell, making this up out of whole cloth. As far as I can tell, most everyone who’s expressed an opinion wants to see them punished for their crimes AND treated. Tee point I am trying to make, is by refusing to look at this issue as one of mental health and not simple criminality, we are not doing society any favors. If the belief of Troppus and miss elizabeth are that mental illness would make the perp more sympathetic or less likely to receive punishment, I needed to frame it in that way/ If their argument is that these people need to be punished, my argument is that they need to be punished AND treated. > [@](#): > > Everyone on TCAP crossed the line, by taking physical actions that were beyond a reasonable doubt intended to end with sex with an underaged person. My opinion has been: Yes they committed a crime - but the police may have induced the crime. Definitely 100% of them are guilty of wanting to harass a child, but would they have committed attempted rape had the decoy not been their target? I am not sure you could say that they would have beyond a reasonable doubt. Put them in jail for harassment and get them the help they need before you release them. But other than that, I question how many actual event of child rape/molestation have been thwarted by such practices. ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/370 "2011-10-12T03:46:59Z")
> [@IAmError403](#): > > Tee point I am trying to make, is by refusing to look at this issue as one of mental health and not simple criminality, we are not doing society any favors. > > If the belief of Troppus and miss elizabeth are that mental illness would make the perp more sympathetic or less likely to receive punishment, I needed to frame it in that way/ > > If their argument is that these people need to be punished, my argument is that they need to be punished AND treated. > > My opinion has been: Yes they committed a crime - but the police may have induced the crime. Definitely 100% of them are guilty of wanting to harass a child, but would they have committed attempted rape had the decoy not been their target? I am not sure you could say that they would have beyond a reasonable doubt. > > Put them in jail for harassment and get them the help they need before you release them. > > But other than that, I question how many actual event of child rape/molestation have been thwarted by such practices. I apologize if you had to decipher this. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/371 "2011-10-12T05:34:29Z")
> [@IAmError403](#): > > In scenario B, if a man is TRULY under the impression that the girl is a minor, I still feel it constitutes entrapment. Like I said, just because he may have had intent, had the police not conducted the operation he would have probably not committed the crime. That depends on how often chat room pedos actually learn addresses from their victims. I’d think it’d be vanishingly rare. Yet there they are, trolling for 12 year olds home alone. If they got an address from an actual 12 year old do you think they _wouldn’t_ drive there? > [@](#): > > We are not conducting stings on alley-way rapists either. Pitch this to a television exec. There’s gold in dem thar hills. I feel like whether pedos are mentally ill or not could be a whole other thread. I don’t see what knowing right from wrong or having a successful career has anything to do with it. Sociopaths and serial killers can do that, are they not mentally ill? I’d hope (and I’m a very cynical man hater but maybe even I’m being naive?) a man wanting to have sex with a 12 year old is incredibly abnormal, falling well outside the bounds the vast majority of men’s sexual fantasies. Are there any good data on this? Maybe a penile plethysmograph study? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/372 "2011-10-12T13:41:09Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > And thank god, you lasses were the only “action” I got when I was a teen. Yeah… I wouldn’t be so sure that all of them were lasses. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/373 "2011-10-12T14:28:38Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Yeah… I wouldn’t be so sure that all of them were lasses. I’m not, but given it was text-based, it hardly matters. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/374 "2011-10-12T17:12:13Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > Or how about we do a deal, you go through 8 random transcripts from that period (preferably where the man came over) and if they’re not in any of them I will admit it’s rare for the decoy to bring it up first and search through the rest. > [@Bricker](#): > > Deal. OK, I created these by cloing my eyes and spinning the mouse scroll wheel over a list of convicted names, then taking the name closest to the top of the screen. [ul] [li]Raleigh, North Carolina[/li]Christopher Lord Brings up coming for a “date,” then kissing, french kissing, fondling, wanting the 14 year old to wear a “sexy bra and panties,” and then sex – all first. [li]Pasedena, California[/li]Gregory John Karnos Brings up meeting, then sex – all first. [li]Trenton, New Jersey[/li]Chris Raynor Brings up fondling and then sex – all first. [li]North Carolina[/li]David Wayne Forsyth Brings up taking pictures of the 14 year old, buying her clothes, having fantasies about her, wanting to “well like kissing other parts, other then the mouth ,” all first. [li]Mercer, Pennsylvania[/li]Alan Persch Brings up body lubing itself for sex, and then sex itself – all first. [li]Michigan[/li]Dennis Ray Frick Brings up sex first, and right away. [li]Chatham Township, New Jersey[/li]Michael D’Onofrio Compliments the breasts of the 13 year old picture on the chatter’s profile, tells her he’s got a erection looking at it, describes himself masturbating, brings up oral sex – all first. [li]Ohio[/li]Stephen Holt Asks if she’s ever kissed a guy, how far she’s gone with guys, says he’d feel bad if they had sex and he hurt her but he wouldn’t mind being her first – all first. [/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/375 "2011-10-12T18:08:43Z")
> [@IAmError403](#): > > My opinion has been: Yes they committed a crime - but the police may have **induced the crime**. Definitely 100% of them are guilty of wanting to harass a child, but would they have committed attempted rape had the decoy not been their target? I am not sure you could say that they would have beyond a reasonable doubt. This is the part that has some of us scratching our heads. You don’t seem to get that the guys went to the chatrooms to _troll for victims_. They were not lured. They instigated. \*\*Bricker \*\*just took the challenge of looking at 8 chats at random. All of them were trolling for victims. They were not led there, they thought they were leading an underage girl there. I looked at some of the transcripts linked to in the earlier part of the thread. It’s not that their intent is obvious, it’s that it is _so_ obvious that anyone who denies it seems naive or disingenous. [sub]bolding mine[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/376 "2011-10-12T18:45:15Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > That’s a crime, by the way. “Attempted X” is a crime, even if the circumstances were such that you couldn’t possibly succeed in performing act X. If I put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, even if unbeknownst to me the cops swapped out the gun for one that had no firing pin, I am still on the hook. Apparently, some of the people in this thread attended the Sideshow Bob School of Law: “Attempted murder? Now, honsestly, what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry?” ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/377 "2011-10-12T18:59:09Z")
I finished 4 more chats, and I didn’t record everything like **Bricker** did, although I should have. I’m not doing it again though; it was awful. In every one of mine the disgusting pervert brought up sex before the decoy, and I was actually surprised at how much the decoy didn’t engage or encourage anything. Most of the replies were “lol,” or “idk, lol”. It was disgusting. The stuff these guys said… ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/378 "2011-10-12T18:59:39Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > I looked at some of the transcripts linked to in the earlier part of the thread. It’s not that their intent is obvious, it’s that it is _so_ obvious that anyone who denies it seems naive or disingenous. This, this, a thousand times this. I have yet to see ANY link to ANY transcript of this kind of conversation (with a P-J or police bait) from ANY site, PJs or not, that showed the bait leading with sex instead of waiting for the perp. Never seen it. Not even once. Thus, I feel the onus is on the people claiming entrapment to provide an example of the bait entrapping someone, instead of being passive bait. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/379 "2011-10-12T22:39:29Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > Or how about we do a deal, you go through 8 random transcripts from that period (preferably where the man came over) and if they’re not in any of them I will admit it’s rare for the decoy to bring it up first and search through the rest. Two people have done the research YOU should have done. Where is that admission? ---
**Author:** ![ModernPrimate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@ModernPrimate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ModernPrimate)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/380 "2011-10-13T00:24:29Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Two people have done the research YOU should have done. Where is that admission? Okay give me a minute, I thought it would take less time to go through these chats. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/381 "2011-10-13T00:29:22Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > Okay give me a minute, I thought it would take less time to go through these chats. It is somewhat time-consuming, but not that bad. Just read each chat until you see that sex has been mentioned, and then see who mentioned it first. Since you presumably don’t need to take notes (as I did) to provide a reference for the chat, it should go relatively quickly. How many chats have you looked at so far? ---
**Author:** ![ModernPrimate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@ModernPrimate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ModernPrimate)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/382 "2011-10-13T04:11:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It is somewhat time-consuming, but not that bad. Just read each chat until you see that sex has been mentioned, and then see who mentioned it first. Since you presumably don’t need to take notes (as I did) to provide a reference for the chat, it should go relatively quickly. > > How many chats have you looked at so far? I went through a few for sure and partly through others. lol @ the length of this one: [http://perverted-justice.com/?archive=gjk1352](http://perverted-justice.com/?archive=gjk1352) The man works fast. 😛 The general theme seems to be that they don’t mention it first, you are right. However I wouldn’t rule out there being at least one case of the decoy arguably bringing it up first. This could be what led the anchor to make the comment, he could vaguely be aware of that trial. Perhaps an email to perverted-justice would help, just try to get someone other than that crazy guy Xavier Von Erick who heads perverted justice (he genuinely has problems and even attacks his own people, if you do a search for him like 95% of the results are negative). Yes, in every instance I’ve viewed recently the alleged perpetrator bring it up first. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862.md?page=20)