# How can some people go to jail for 2+ years for being on To Catch A Predator? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862 "2011-10-07T03:24:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/21 "2011-10-07T14:49:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps. > > But the state of Virginia is not taking some ancient law about luring and applying it to this modern interaction. The law in Virginia specifically contemplates computer communication, and punishes a person over 18 who uses a computer system to suggest sexual activity to a person under 18. > > You may believe that this kid of conduct should be legal, or should be punished less harshly, and you’re welcome to that opinion. But you cannot complain that the law is the result of outdated legislation meeting the computer age; the law was written after the computer age and specifically mentions the use of computers. The legislature intended to reach computer communication with this law. When was that law drafted? There has been a rather fast and dramatic increase in video content over the last few years. Chat rooms have been around since the nineties after all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/22 "2011-10-07T15:01:54Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I don’t want to speak for **thirdname** but shouldn’t there be? I assume that the state’s position is, “Well, you thought that you were chatting with a 13yo and that’s close enough.” Do we really know what the person was thinking? Are we punishing thought crimes? > > If the police send a 22yo into a liquor store and the 22yo tells the clerk that they’re 20, has the clerk broken the law by selling them liquor? I don’t know what you think you mean by “thought crimes.” In the usual use of the term, a “thought crime” would be the crime merely of thinking something bad, accompanied by no action at all. If that’s what you mean, then no: we’re not punishing thought crime. Perhaps you mean “thought crime” as requiring both a certain mental state as well as a certain action to exist before we punish. That’s true, and is almost always true for nearly the entirety of the criminal code. With rare exceptions, every crime requires both the _actus reus_ – the guity act – and the _mens rea_ – the guilty state of mind. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/23 "2011-10-07T15:05:03Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > I would think this would be the first line of defense these guys would take. If I claim that I was aware that the ‘bait’ person was over the age of 18 and was engaging in playacting and came over expecting to meet an adult for sex, what is the State’s rebuttal when all they can produce is an adult who was playacting who invited me over for sex? Usually they catch people saying things like “You’re not a cop, right?” or “I really shouldn’t be doing this, I could get in trouble.” They acknowledge that they know what they are doing is illegal- which you wouldn’t do in a role play that is obviously legal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/24 "2011-10-07T15:07:46Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > I would think this would be the first line of defense these guys would take. If I claim that I was aware that the ‘bait’ person was over the age of 18 and was engaging in playacting and came over expecting to meet an adult for sex, what is the State’s rebuttal when all they can produce is an adult who was playacting who invited me over for sex? You may as well ask, “How can the state ever convict me of attempted murder, when I claim that all I ever intended to do was wound my victim and all they can produce is one wounded but alive victim?” Here, they produce the chat logs and the profile pictures that were visible to you, and they ask the jury to infer you intended the obvious. The jury is free to credit your testimony. If they do, of course, they will acquit you of the crime. The jury is also free to disregard your testimony and believe the chat logs and picture mean that you thought you were meeting an underage partner. This is not new. In every crime that requires intent, the state has to prove what you were thinking, and they do that by the inference that you intended the ordinary results of your actions. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/25 "2011-10-07T15:09:07Z")
> [@Isaacedwardleibowitz](#): > > I agree that To Catch a Predator is ridiculously out of bounds. What is perhaps worse than the prison sentences is the fact that these men have their reputations ruined on national television - and all for ratings. One of the victims [committed suicide](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Conradt) while the crew were waiting outside his house. I’m not defending men who chat with teenage girls on the internet, but ruining people’s lives for TV spectacle seems sinister to me. :dubious: Defending these guys is exactly what you’re doing. Those ‘nice guys’ who show up think they’re going to have sex with an underage girl and you think its sinister that their reputations get ruined? The public shame is well deserved. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/26 "2011-10-07T15:09:50Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > When was that law drafted? There has been a rather fast and dramatic increase in video content over the last few years. Chat rooms have been around since the nineties after all. In 2007. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/27 "2011-10-07T15:12:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In 2007. Huh. I concede the point then. I still think that there is a huge issue of both consent, and lack of physical meeting though. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/28 "2011-10-07T15:21:25Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Internet predators luring teenagers are the 21st century version of the satanic cult abusing children hysteria the U.S. had in the 80s and early 90s (check out the book Satantic Panic for a more detailed explanation of how the stupidity works in moral panics). Not even close, there are several dozen bait players chatting with men looking for sex with underaged girls in any given day. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/29 "2011-10-07T15:28:34Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > It’s not on so much this side of the Atlantic, but I’m really taken aback by some of the sentencing. The decoys beg the other chatter over and over to come, and they engage in extremely explicit material themselves. Cite for the claim that the decoys beg the other chatter to come? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/30 "2011-10-07T15:31:01Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Huh. I concede the point then. > > I still think that there is a huge issue of both consent, and lack of physical meeting though. OK. The state legislature disagrees with you. They believe it should be criminal to offer sexual activity even without meeting – that a crime happens the moment you propose the sexual activity. And even if that law didn’t exist, the general law of attempt says that if you try to commit a crime, but are thwarted by some outside circumstance, you’re guilty of _attempting_ the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/31 "2011-10-07T15:33:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps you mean “thought crime” as requiring both a certain mental state as well as a certain action to exist before we punish. That’s true, and is almost always true for nearly the entirety of the criminal code. With rare exceptions, every crime requires both the _actus reus_ – the guity act – and the _mens rea_ – the guilty state of mind. Then in the case of chatting with someone pretending to be something that they are not, what is the _actus reus_? Would you mind addressing my liquor store question? I’m not trying to be snarky or anything, I’m just really interested in the answer because I don’t have a clue. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/32 "2011-10-07T15:35:38Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > I also don’t get why they’re allowed to broadcast the person either without their permission, using their image as entertainment and to make money. A show like Cops is different because you are just observing law enforcement, sort of like how you can view a public trial. But Chris isn’t interviewing them on behalf of the state. Some shows, especially satirical shows have to get written consent that they allow a person to show their face on tv. Cops also ends up blurring stuff here and there too. You are seeing the guys who did give permission. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/33 "2011-10-07T15:39:24Z")
I think some of the shock of the OP, is any on of us, under certain circumstances can be tempted into something illegal. We all have weaknesses and there are situations we find ourselves in where little by little by little we fall into them without even knowing we were going there and without any intentions in doing so. For someone be be leading a normal and even productive life to have to deal with imprisonment and lets face it with this crime, a lifetime of public disgrace, for a human weakness is a scary thought. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/34 "2011-10-07T15:40:47Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Then in the case of chatting with someone pretending to be something that they are not, what is the _actus reus_? Sure. The act is using a computer to propose sexual activity to a person you have reason to believe is less than 15 years of age. > [@](#): > > Would you mind addressing my liquor store question? I’m not trying to be snarky or anything, I’m just really interested in the answer because I don’t have a clue. Not at all. “If the police send a 22yo into a liquor store and the 22yo tells the clerk that they’re 20, has the clerk broken the law by selling them liquor?” Probably, yes. If the state has a rule that all persons who appear to be under the age of 30, for example, must be carded, then the clerk broke that law. If the state has a law that you can’t sell liquor to a person under 21, then the clerk may have attempted to break that law. And as a general principle, the law of attempt says that an attempted crime is itself a crime, and can be punished. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/35 "2011-10-07T15:41:53Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Then in the case of chatting with someone pretending to be something that they are not, what is the _actus reus_? If you buy a kilo of baking soda from an undercover cop believing you had purchased cocaine, you have fallen into the same trap. There was no real drug dealer and there was no real coke are not going to be valid defenses > [@](#): > > Would you mind addressing my liquor store question? I’m not trying to be snarky or anything, I’m just really interested in the answer because I don’t have a clue. If someone made such a statement, you don’t sell to them, you have just been given reasonable information to believe you are about to do something illegal (sell to under 21). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/36 "2011-10-07T15:44:40Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > If you buy a kilo of baking soda from an undercover cop believing you had purchased cocaine, you have fallen into the same trap. There was no real drug dealer and there was no real coke are not going to be valid defenses Correct. And the same two possibilites exist: the state may have a law against buying or selling counterfeit contraband, and even if they don’t, you have attempted to buy contraband with the attempt itself being a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/37 "2011-10-07T15:49:28Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Read some of the transcripts on Perverted Justice. [Holy shit!](http://www.perverted-justice.com/?archive=fleet_captain_jaime_wolfe) > [@](#): > > This is not people going in and enticing upright people to cross the line. We’re not talking about a fake seventeen year old in bikini pics going into a sex chat room and dinging them for chatting back. I wasn’t inclined to defend these guys in the first place, but if the above transcript is even close to typical, I’ve gone from “Hopefully this’ll learn 'em” to “AUGH LOCK THESE PEOPLE UP FOREVER!” And I never think that about anyone, ever. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/38 "2011-10-07T15:50:53Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I think some of the shock of the OP, is any on of us, under certain circumstances can be tempted into something illegal. We all have weaknesses and there are situations we find ourselves in where little by little by little we fall into them without even knowing we were going there and without any intentions in doing so. For someone be be leading a normal and even productive life to have to deal with imprisonment and lets face it with this crime, a lifetime of public disgrace, for a human weakness is a scary thought. Read the transcript I just linked to and tell me if it changes your mind at all. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/39 "2011-10-07T15:52:45Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > The decoys beg the other chatter over and over to come, and they engage in extremely explicit material themselves. The decoys do not beg, at all. The instructions are quite specific, you let them suggest, let them make the first move, never accept the first offer, always make sure the target thinks you are the age you claim. Alot of the bait players will say things like “I’m only 14, isn’t that kinda weird/creepy/odd” The guy will reply with something to the extent that she seems so mature, that such things are just misunderstood, love does not recognize the difference in age, whatever. If a chat wanders into territory that PJ feels will lead to an easy entrapment defense, it never leaves PJ, and is never prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Toucanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Toucanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toucanna)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/40 "2011-10-07T16:00:29Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > {snip}If the police send a 22yo into a liquor store and the 22yo tells the clerk that they’re 20, has the clerk broken the law by selling them liquor? My husband, whose place of business sells alcohol, says that to the best of his belief and knowledge, as far as Texas law is concerned, no illegal activity took place under this scenario. However, for the purposes of this discussion, the scenario you propose is not analogous. What would be analogous is having undercover officers (who are over the age of 21) hang out at an “under-21 club”. When over-21s come in and proposition attendees (that they believe are under-age) to consume alcohol that they will provide, the UC officers arrest the over-21s for contributing to the delinquency of a minor (among other charges). Admittedly a gross over-simplification, but in this situation and in the “Perverted Justice” cases, the one proposing to break the law is the of-age person, not the supposed-minor. While I am no fan of these “gotcha” shows, it is my understanding that the online decoys neither initiate contact nor propose meet-ups with the adults. The decoys’ response to any proposition is something along the lines of, “mmm…okay…whatever you say”, which does not constitute entrapment, IMO. As for the “public humiliation” factor, if those arrested do not think they have done anything wrong, then why do they act as though they are ashamed of their actions? Further, why should they be ashamed? If they believe strongly that they are innocent of the charges and/or that the laws are draconian, they should fight them, and do so very publicly. We’ve seen many total nut-jobs successfully pushing wacky or sick agendas into the public eye merely by being tirelessly vociferous about them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862.md?page=3)