# How can some people go to jail for 2+ years for being on To Catch A Predator? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862 "2011-10-07T03:24:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/383 "2011-10-13T04:44:06Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > However I wouldn’t rule out there being at least one case of the decoy arguably bringing it up first. One arguable case really would not support the accusations you’ve made. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/384 "2011-10-13T08:02:13Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > The general theme seems to be that they don’t mention it first, you are right. However I wouldn’t rule out there being at least one case of the decoy arguably bringing it up first. This could be what led the anchor to make the comment, he could vaguely be aware of that trial. Perhaps an email to perverted-justice would help, just try to get someone other than that crazy guy Xavier Von Erick who heads perverted justice (he genuinely has problems and even attacks his own people, if you do a search for him like 95% of the results are negative). > > Yes, in every instance I’ve viewed recently the alleged perpetrator bring it up first. I suppose I wouldn’t rule it out either unless I first reviewed each and every chat log, but I have no reason to believe it exists, either. And the burden of proof that one such chat does exist would certainly be on the person making the claim. You spent four pages posting things like this: > [@ModernPrimate](#): > > The decoys beg the other chatter over and over to come, and they engage in extremely explicit material themselves. > . > . > . > But here it’s the underage girls who did the luring. It’s a joke. > [@ModernPrimate](#): > > If there were hot 18+ year old girls begging them to come over most of them would be vastly more willing to come over. But there aren’t any, there is only this one girl who is 15. > [@ModernPrimate](#): > > Actual 13 or 14 year old girls don’t beg people to come to their homes like that. It’s entrapment in its purest form. > [@ModernPrimate](#): > > They don’t “pretend to beg”, they actually beg. Now that you understand that in fact, there is no begging, no luring, and that the predator in each case is the first to bring up coming over, to bring up sex – do you have any changes to make in your assessment? ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/385 "2011-10-13T09:07:37Z")
Does anyone have the chat logs for Joseph Roisman? > [@](#): > > On leave in 2006, Joseph Roisman was contacted in a chat room by an adult posing as an underage teen, reports the Press-Democrat. > > The judge likely ruled in favor of this defense because there was no evidence that Joseph Roisman had ever intended to engage in sexual activity with a child prior to the incident, and the evidence showed that To Catch a Predator and Perverted Justice initiated the entire ordeal. [http://blogs.findlaw.com/celebrity\_justice/2011/08/catch-a-predator-lacks-credibility-entrapped-ca-man-judge-rules.html](http://blogs.findlaw.com/celebrity_justice/2011/08/catch-a-predator-lacks-credibility-entrapped-ca-man-judge-rules.html) Perverted Justice did not post the logs on their website. Also how are these chat logs obtained? Are they produced by Perverted Justice or do they get them from the IRC provider? I’d be very surprised if this was the ONLY time PJ initiated contact and initiated conversation about sex. Everyone makes mistakes. You can’t tell me that they have a nearly perfect record with only one screw up. It’s not like PJ are ‘professionals’ they are simply volunteers(or vigilantes) cooperating with police. It’s much more likely that: 1. They never pursue chats where a decoy screwed up and initiated contact/sexual conversation. 2. They never publish their involvement in cases where they screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/386 "2011-10-13T09:48:09Z")
> [@IAmError403](#): > > Does anyone have the chat logs for Joseph Roisman? > > [http://blogs.findlaw.com/celebrity\_justice/2011/08/catch-a-predator-lacks-credibility-entrapped-ca-man-judge-rules.html](http://blogs.findlaw.com/celebrity_justice/2011/08/catch-a-predator-lacks-credibility-entrapped-ca-man-judge-rules.html) > > Perverted Justice did not post the logs on their website. Also how are these chat logs obtained? Are they produced by Perverted Justice or do they get them from the IRC provider? > > I’d be very surprised if this was the ONLY time PJ initiated contact and initiated conversation about sex. Everyone makes mistakes. You can’t tell me that they have a nearly perfect record with only one screw up. It’s not like PJ are ‘professionals’ they are simply volunteers(or vigilantes) cooperating with police. > > It’s much more likely that: > > 1. They never pursue chats where a decoy screwed up and initiated contact/sexual conversation. > 2. They never publish their involvement in cases where they screwed up. And what explanation do you have for the fact that this is the first time in PJ’s history that a judge has dismissed one of their cases for entrapment? My understanding is that when charges are pending they do not post the chat logs. In this case, given the acquittal, they will probably not post the logs at all; it would be unfair to a man who is as a matter of law not guilty. The logs are stored simultaneously at PJ and off-site (and sometimes at a third location, if the cooperating police agency is equipped to store them live) and stored with an md5 hash to provide proof they have not been altered. ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/387 "2011-10-13T10:19:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And what explanation do you have for the fact that this is the first time in PJ’s history that a judge has dismissed one of their cases for entrapment? > > My understanding is that when charges are pending they do not post the chat logs. In this case, given the acquittal, they will probably not post the logs at all; it would be unfair to a man who is as a matter of law not guilty. > > The logs are stored simultaneously at PJ and off-site (and sometimes at a third location, if the cooperating police agency is equipped to store them live) and stored with an md5 hash to provide proof they have not been altered. Can any of this be independently verified? From what I have seen, everything you have claimed about their procedures are provided from their organization. This is an unregulated group with no oversight. Has there ever been an independent investigation of their practices? Are any of them liable for any misconduct they may commit? How can you be so sure that they have a clean record when they don’t release logs of chats where convictions have been overturned or were acquitted? How do you know that they don’t just post a conviction record without posting the acquittals. How are you so sure that this is first time someone was acquitted. Where is your evidence? Can it be independently verified? Do you also believe everything on the Church of Scientology website? The more I read about the practices of these individuals, the more I am convinced these people don’t deserve to be taken seriously or trusted. How can you people possibly defend this type of behavior? > [@](#): > > Once enough of the PJ Target’s “confirmed” personal information has been posted in the Follow-up Forums, ALL PJ members are encouraged to attempt to contact the “bust” using any means possible, including telephoning at all hours of the day or night, death threats, sending of continuous derogatory IMs (internet messages) to the PJ Target’s computer, ordering pizza delivery to the PJ Target’s address in the middle of the night, etc. > > Members are encouraged to contact family members, neighbors, acquaintances, work colleagues, employers, etc. to “warn” them about the “pervert” in their midst. > > The majority of the harassment appears to be carried out by a relative few (less than 50) of the more outspoken members. > > Details of the harassment efforts are posted in the “Reactions” forum, where they are lauded and encouraged by other members. > > To circumvent current harassment laws, PJ harassers are taught to stop calling the target if the target requests it. The harasser then posts the the fact that they were asked to stop calling publicly in the forums, “passing off” the responsibility for further harassing phone calls to the next available harasser. Due to the number of PJ members willing to engage in anonymous phone harassment, this can result in the target receiving hundreds of phone calls and death threats, even after he has requested that the initial harasser stop calling. > > Recent information indicates that a number of their “harassers” are actually underage children themselves. One particular case was that of “Geris”, a 14-year-old boy who was being used by PJ to phone and e-mail busts. > > Note: It should be noted that the PJ forums have an automated feature whereby any use of the word “harass” in any posted message is automatically replaced by the word “contact”, along with a statement to the effect that PJ does not condone harassment. [http://www.corrupted-justice.com/fact1.html](http://www.corrupted-justice.com/fact1.html) Please let me know when these idiots start getting as worked up about the REAL problems like child neglect, child hunger, and family child abuse. I am not convinced these people are doing any good AT ALL. Should we encourage this type of rabid vigilantism just because the people they are attacking have a mental problem that most don’t? [sarcasm]I can’t wait until the police start trusting other untrained and unchecked vigilante groups take care of even more problems.[/sarcasm] ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/388 "2011-10-13T10:32:10Z")
> [@](#): > > AngryGerman > Snootchie Bootchies, bloke > Joined: 24 May 2002 > Posts: 5339 > Posts per day: [7.12] > Location: Portland, Oregon > > PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:51 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin. > You know what’s hilarious about this? > > Not only did this guy threaten to sue me over a period of two weeks for posting that file, but his ex-wife actually got on webcam to plead for me to take down his phone number, stating that while he is a disturbed individual, she didn’t want people calling and bothering her children who reside with him. The guy is a mental fruitcake and stories about him trying to hook up with underage children in those rooms are fairly widespread. > [@](#): > > Please note: This was over 1 year AFTER this guy was busted: > [@](#): > > PJ has an operation in the works trying to RE-Catch this individual. > > “Insomnia69” talks to him on IM and pretends to be his friend. Then she runs and posts on PJ. Cole5x5 has been harassed and stalked by PJ for more than a year. Insomnia may have changed her screen name but she is still “Grooming” cole5x5 trying to make him appear to be a pedo. [http://www.corrupted-justice.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2934](http://www.corrupted-justice.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2934) ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/389 "2011-10-13T10:37:58Z")
And there is apparent evidence that your “heroes” have also had real children contact pedophiles: > [@](#): > > trex132: I am looking at it right now–kinda cute, in a dorky sort of way > This winner also called Geris’s cell phone: > > \ I gave them my cell number and he called it > \ It went like this > \ Me: Hello? Him: This is AVOS verifying this number Me: Good I hope you ro -click- Geris was apparently 14 when at the time. Sorry I can’t independently verify any of this, but since all of your info is coming from PJs site, I might as well start posting unverifiable info as well. ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/390 "2011-10-13T10:46:18Z")
And how many of these vigilantes are crossing the lines themselves: [http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/former-perverted-justice-member-arrested-for-ddosing-rolling-stone-radar/](http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/former-perverted-justice-member-arrested-for-ddosing-rolling-stone-radar/) > [@](#): > > One of the 25 men caught in the sting – a prosecutor from a neighboring county – committed suicide when police came to arrest him. The Murphy city manager who approved the operation lost his job in the ensuing furor. > > And the district attorney is refusing to prosecute any of the men, saying many of the cases were tainted by the involvement of amateurs. [http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20070628-1057-sexpredatorsting.html](http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20070628-1057-sexpredatorsting.html) Can you verify that these men were ever prosecuted, and if they weren’t do you still insist on saying they have a nearly perfect record? ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/391 "2011-10-13T11:00:10Z")
From PJs own website: > [@](#): > > 03/09/08: Once again, Collin County prosecutor is a Liar > > We’ve talked about it plenty and we had thought we were done mentioning it… but Collin County prosecutor John Roach is a liar, incompetent and all-around stupid. You might think we’re just covering a lot of old ground but no, this is something new. And outlandish. And… well, have a read for yourself. > > Recently while doing an audit of our case checking area, one of our volunteers assigned to keep up on cases stemming from our evidence noticed something weird. A case from Texas that hadn’t really been checked up on. What we found we would like to say surprised us, but the Collin County DA’s office is so inept and stupid that we’re not all that shocked. We had missed a case resolution in March 2007, one of our cases had a sentencing and we weren’t aware. Collin County DA’s office was aware though… Why? > > They prosecuted it. > > The case of Jose Guevara was prosecuted by the Collin County DA’s office. Sound unbelievable? Read the detailed write-up. The lead prosecutor in the Collin County DA’s office who once ignorantly mouthed off that prosecuting a case based off our work was “impossible”… has a DA in his office who made the impossible quite easy. > > Of course, it’s easy in all the other dozens of jurisdictions that have prosecuted our cases too, but to a simpleton like Collin County DA John Roach… well, we’re sure very little comes easy. Actually, we do know one thing does come easy to a guy like John Roach: letting internet sexual predators off the hook in his jurisdiction. That is, other than the one case of ours that they’ve already prosecuted. The impossible case, of course. > > We’ve never, ever, dealt with such a corrupt and deceitful prosecutors office as we have in Collin County, Texas. Disgraceful. [http://www.perverted-justice.com/?updates=recent&offset=10](http://www.perverted-justice.com/?updates=recent&offset=10) Apparently in response to this (sorry all cites were beyond pay-wall): > [@](#): > > On June 1, 2007, the Collin County District Attorney’s office announced that it would not pursue any of the indictments that To Catch a Predator had netted. Officials from the DA’s office believed that the cases were riddled with errors. More problematically, it appeared that nearly all of the investigative work had been done by Perverted-Justice and Dateline, with the police only playing the role of the arresting force. In its response, Perverted-Justice said it had complied with the DA, offered assistance and evidence, but had found the DA to be corrupt and lazy. > **[Suicide of Bill Conradt | Aftermath](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Conradt#Aftermath)** > > Immediately after the shooting, Detective Patterson was leaving the bait house in Murphy when local police pulled him over. At gunpoint, they forced him from his truck and handcuffed him. The Dateline contractor had been mistaken for a suspect in the sting who owned the same-colored make and model of truck. > Dateline stated that police took three encrypted computers from Conradt's house, and by February 2007, were coordinating with their manufacturer to unlock the files within. Dateline later ... About as respectful as you could expect. That’s all from me. I am done with this topic and the people defending these vigilantes. I had no idea that PJ was full of a bunch of arrogant, disrespectful and dangerous netizens until I started reading a bit more. Maybe all of you should do the same. ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/392 "2011-10-13T12:31:57Z")
Sigh, [http://www.news-journalonline.com/special/predator/flaFLAG01021909.htm](http://www.news-journalonline.com/special/predator/flaFLAG01021909.htm) Again more evidence that there is potential doctoring of evidence being done. Glad that we’re using unverified chatlogs as evidence. > [@](#): > > stored with an md5 hash to provide proof they have not been altered Hashing the chatlogs is in no way going to prevent doctoring, if they were hashed AFTER being doctored. I’m glad all I need to do to make chat logs legitimate is to hash them. \ don’t be offended this is just to prove a point [08:09:55] \<+bricker\> And then I realized, JFK had really been assassinated by the US government. And the moon landing had all been a hoax. [08:10:05] \ I thought I was the only one who believed in crazy conspiracy theories. [08:10:30] \ Did you guys see that amazing thing I just posted on Straight Dope? Suddenly everyone loves me and I feel both important and special. [08:10:55] \<+bricker\> asl? \ Now verifiable for authenticity with an MD5 hash: 86fe53a5bb5338972fc4df3a6f610c61 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/393 "2011-10-13T13:21:13Z")
> [@IAmError403](#): > > Can any of this be independently verified? From what I have seen, everything you have claimed about their procedures are provided from their organization. This is an unregulated group with no oversight. > > Has there ever been an independent investigation of their practices? Are any of them liable for any misconduct they may commit? How can you be so sure that they have a clean record when they don’t release logs of chats where convictions have been overturned or were acquitted? How do you know that they don’t just post a conviction record without posting the acquittals. How are you so sure that this is first time someone was acquitted. Where is your evidence? Can it be independently verified? Do you also believe everything on the Church of Scientology website? When there is a conviction, the presumption of innocence is lost. The burden would be on you to show that any of these speculations have occurred. The episodes of “To Catch a Predator” aired. You’re welcome to verify each name from the show against a published chat log. But your tactic of requiring your opponents to prove a negative is not going to be indulged any longer, at least by me. If you claim there’s a person accused by PJ but whose chat logs have not been released, let’s see some evidence of that claim. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/394 "2011-10-13T13:24:32Z")
> [@IAmError403](#): > > Sorry I can’t independently verify any of this, but since all of your info is coming from PJs site, I might as well start posting unverifiable info as well. This statement is untrue. I have posted contemporaneous news stories supporting my claims as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/395 "2011-10-13T13:34:57Z")
> [@IAmError403](#): > > Sigh, > > [http://www.news-journalonline.com/special/predator/flaFLAG01021909.htm](http://www.news-journalonline.com/special/predator/flaFLAG01021909.htm) > > Again more evidence that there is potential doctoring of evidence being done. Glad that we’re using unverified chatlogs as evidence. The “evidence” in this link is a quote from motion papers filed by a defense attorney, claiming PJ did not allow examination of their computers. From that link: > [@](#): > > Charges against a former police officer snared in a Dateline NBC “To Catch a Predator” sex sting in Flagler Beach should be dropped, in part, because a vigilante group didn’t allow its computer to be examined, \*\*according to a court document. \*\* > > While Perverted Justice acted as an agent for police and “essentially conducted the entire investigation” leading to the arrest of 21 men, the vigilante group is not following rules that would apply to police and are meant to ensure fair trial, \*\*states a motion filed by an attorney for Todd Spikes. \*\* But not only did PJ deny that this claim was true – but the judge agreed, denying the motion in question. After which Officer Spikes was found guilty and sentenced. > [@](#): > > Hashing the chatlogs is in no way going to prevent doctoring, if they were hashed AFTER being doctored. Correct. But this is why they save two copies – on saved in real time, off-site and not accessible to the PJ people. Both copies are saved with an md5 hash. Can you explain how that’s vulnerable to tampering, and what evidence you have that it has been tampered with? ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/396 "2011-10-13T13:46:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > When there is a conviction, the presumption of innocence is lost. The burden would be on you to show that any of these speculations have occurred. > > The episodes of “To Catch a Predator” aired. You’re welcome to verify each name from the show against a published chat log. But your tactic of requiring your opponents to prove a negative is not going to be indulged any longer, at least by me. If you claim there’s a person accused by PJ but whose chat logs have not been released, let’s see some evidence of that claim. I have shared reports that the police are not always involved in evidence gathering. Would you want to be convicted on evidence collected by amateurs? The cases against these people are weak. I would have accused them of doctoring evidence and forced them to provide access to their computer system. I would have questioned the legitimacy of their hashed log files and pointed out the raucous behavior of some of their other members. I would make the judge/jury see that these people are motivated to do anything in their power to make a conviction, even if it means bending the rules. I wonder how many of those news articles that you’ve provided get their information from an impartial source. Seems to me that they all get their information from the same place you do, Perverted Justice’s website or a spokesperson representing them. It’s clear to me now that they don’t have quite as spotless of a record as you lead me to believe earlier and again, that misinformation is based on you looking at their website and seeing the conviction rate. Odd that there no acquittals, case dismissals, mistrials, hung juries etc… even though they have occurred. It would be quite a task to contact every police department or courthouse looking for records of their involvement with such cases. I don’t expect that all of these stings are well documented elsewhere. And since PJ is the ONLY source for most of this information online, I can’t exactly use them as a reliable/impartial source. In an even more ridiculous case a kid was put away for looking at drawings: [http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/02/obscene-us-manga-collector-jailed-6-months/](http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/02/obscene-us-manga-collector-jailed-6-months/) I didn’t even know that was a crime, but his attorney told him to take a plea because of the nature of the crime and the images he was looking at. What did you say about their being alternatives to a jury trial? Trial from the bench you said? Then explain to me why this attorney told him to take the plea. Do you think it was the right choice? Don’t you think that the nature of the crime you are accused of can have an affect on the outcome of a trial? From the attorney of that case: > [@](#): > > So, Chris had the following difficult options. He could defend the images which, when projected on an 8’x8’ screen on a courtroom wall, an Iowa jury certainly, and any jury probably, would have likely agreed they “do not want in their community”. (I note that a ban on “kids having sex” pictures, even when only drawn, appears widely supported even by many otherwise apparently liberal bloggers.) His second choice was to have the receipt charge and its mandatory minimum dismissed and focus at sentencing on his personal situation, which certainly did not merit serious jail time. His ultimate sentence was 6 months with a recommendation that his term be served in a halfway house. Unlike Max Hardcore, who opted for the trial (remember, his prosecution was equally, if not more, offensive to notions of free speech), Chris will likely never have a jail door slam behind him. > **[Handley's Attorney Comments on Obscene Manga Case](https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2010-03-02/7)** > > Christopher Handley's defense attorney Eric Chase addresses some of the questions surrounding Handley's sentencing for possession of obscene manga. This seems to be a much less offensive crime, and the attorney still thought it was best that the person he was representing take a plea deal. It’s absolutely obvious to me, that many of these men are being convicted based on the nature of their crime and not because the crime they are accused of can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/397 "2011-10-13T14:00:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The “evidence” in this link is a quote from motion papers filed by a defense attorney, claiming PJ did not allow examination of their computers. > > From that link: > > But not only did PJ deny that this claim was true – but the judge agreed, denying the motion in question. After which Officer Spikes was found guilty and sentenced. > > Correct. But this is why they save two copies – on saved in real time, off-site and not accessible to the PJ people. > > Both copies are saved with an md5 hash. Can you explain how that’s vulnerable to tampering, and what evidence you have that it has been tampered with? The real time offsite is the log from the IRC servers? And do the police receive it directly from the chat provider? Isn’t it well known that PJ works very closely with IRC providers and are themselves affiliated with some of these IRC providers? I am pretty sure IRC admins are well aware of their activities as often times they are the ones who inform Perverted Justice if their assistance is needed. I believe there is a conflict of interest and the evidence should be inadmissible. Also, you’re claiming that these logs are gathered from IRC servers, but again, where is your proof? Besides what they claim on their website, are there any court cases where they clearly list evidence as being received directly from the IRC servers and directly given to investigators? Also, considering some of these individuals have committed DDOS (and were convicted) attacks against both Rolling Stones (cited earlier) and Corrupted Justice, whose to say that they haven’t hacked into the server and manipulated files. It’s not impossible (or difficult) to make a file appear to have been created at an earlier date. Again, seems like these cases would be easy to win if the nature of the crime didn’t involve children or attempted rape. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/398 "2011-10-13T14:15:56Z")
> [@IAmError403](#): > > I have shared reports that the police are not always involved in evidence gathering. So what? Do you believe that evidence not collected by police is somehow inadmissible? > [@](#): > > Would you want to be convicted on evidence collected by amateurs? No, of course not. Bu then again, I wouldn’t want to be convicted on evidence gathered by professionals. Frankly, even if the evidence against me had been gathered by the real-world equivalents of Hercule Poirot, Sherlock Holmes, and Sam Spade, I would not want to be convicted. Perhaps you mean to ask if evidence collected by amateurs is legally admissible. Answer: yes. > [@](#): > > The cases against these people are weak. I would have accused them of doctoring evidence and forced them to provide access to their computer system. OK. Good for you. But as a former defense attorney, I can tell you that’s a great tactic if in fact the logs have been doctored. If you already know your guy did what the chat logs have him doing, then you don’t gain anything with that approach, and it’s possible you’ll ruin your credibility with the fact-finder. > [@](#): > > I would have questioned the legitimacy of their hashed log files and pointed out the raucous behavior of some of their other members. I would make the judge/jury see that these people are motivated to do anything in their power to make a conviction, even if it means bending the rules. > > I wonder how many of those news articles that you’ve provided get their information from an impartial source. Seems to me that they all get their information from the same place you do, Perverted Justice’s website or a spokesperson representing them. > > It’s clear to me now that they don’t have quite as spotless of a record as you lead me to believe earlier and again, that misinformation is based on you looking at their website and seeing the conviction rate. Odd that there no acquittals, case dismissals, mistrials, hung juries etc… even though they have occurred. > > It would be quite a task to contact every police department or courthouse looking for records of their involvement with such cases. I don’t expect that all of these stings are well documented elsewhere. And since PJ is the ONLY source for most of this information online, I can’t exactly use them as a reliable/impartial source. Perhaps that would be a daunting task. But it’s even more daunting for me to prove that such cases don’t exist. That’s why the burden of proof in debate is allocated to the person making the claim. > [@](#): > > In an even more ridiculous case a kid was put away for looking at drawings: > [http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/02/obscene-us-manga-collector-jailed-6-months/](http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/02/obscene-us-manga-collector-jailed-6-months/) > > I didn’t even know that was a crime, but his attorney told him to take a plea because of the nature of the crime and the images he was looking at. > > What did you say about their being alternatives to a jury trial? Trial from the bench you said? Then explain to me why this attorney told him to take the plea. Do you think it was the right choice? Don’t you think that the nature of the crime you are accused of can have an affect on the outcome of a trial? > > From the attorney of that case: > [Handley's Attorney Comments on Obscene Manga Case - Anime News Network](http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2010-03-02/7) > > This seems to be a much less offensive crime, and the attorney still thought it was best that the person he was representing take a plea deal. > > It’s absolutely obvious to me, that many of these men are being convicted based on the nature of their crime and not because the crime they are accused of can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The case against that guy can easily be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. “Seven books of manga inside contained cartoon drawings of minors engaged in sexually explicit acts and bestiality.” He admits he received and possessed the material. Your gripe in this example seems to be the reach of the law, not the fact that the accused’s conduct violated it. ---
**Author:** ![IAmError403](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dec6dc/32.png) [@IAmError403](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmError403)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/399 "2011-10-13T14:17:05Z")
You know there are real sting operations I can get behind. In the cases where people are attempting to hire hitmen I find it very cut and dry. You have group of trained professionals, gathering evidence, meeting with the offender multiple times to make sure he is serious about committing the crime, and you have video and audo of the whole thing. Finally, the person actually makes a transaction with the officer before they arrest him. I think it’s very obvious when someone is guilty in those cases. Now look at the Perverted Justice cases: Police were not involved in evidence gathering. We only have chatlogs which are easily doctorable as evidence. There is no transaction, but I am not sure how you could expect one. It’s still harder IMO to prove someone’s intent based on the evidence provided by a shady group of amateurs. And considering the support and undeserved credibility they receive from the easily offended masses, it would be quite hard to protect oneself if they decided to target someone maliciously. For example: they DDOSed Rolling Stones for writing a scathing article about them. Though it might have been obvious they were getting revenge, they could have forged some chatlogs, planted them on an IRC server, and claimed the IP address/host mask belonged to the writer of the article (all they would have to do is initiate contact with him somehow to get this information). Possibly it might get thrown out of court, but I would never even want to be accused of something like that. Even if I was accused and then found innocent, I would still want to relocate to somewhere no one knew me. This group is extremely dangerous and they need to be disbanded and strict laws prohibiting these types of actions need to be enforced (we already have laws for vigilantism - I am not sure why we aren’t using them). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/400 "2011-10-13T14:27:26Z")
> [@IAmError403](#): > > I am pretty sure IRC admins are well aware of their activities as often times they are the ones who inform Perverted Justice if their assistance is needed. I believe there is a conflict of interest and the evidence should be inadmissible. That’s fascinating. But complaints about bias go to the weight of the evidence, not its admissibility. [Here is a link to the Federal Rules of Evidence.](http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/) They of course have analogues in each of the fifty states. What provision of the rules of evidence are you relying upon in reaching your opinion that they should be inadmissible? > [@](#): > > Also, you’re claiming that these logs are gathered from IRC servers, but again, where is your proof? Besides what they claim on their website, are there any court cases where they clearly list evidence as being received directly from the IRC servers and directly given to investigators? Yes. > [@](#): > > Also, considering some of these individuals have committed DDOS (and were convicted) attacks against both Rolling Stones (cited earlier) and Corrupted Justice, whose to say that they haven’t hacked into the server and manipulated files. It’s not impossible (or difficult) to make a file appear to have been created at an earlier date. > > Again, seems like these cases would be easy to win if the nature of the crime didn’t involve children or attempted rape. What experience do you have in the criminal justice system? How many cases have you won at trial? On what are you basing your belief that they would be easy to win? You to have the sort of belief that is often learned from mid-tier law schools such as “Law and Order,” “The Practice,” and even “Franklin and Bash.” The idea that all you have to do is suggest, “Who’s to say that they didn’t fabricate evidence?” is enough to render the evidence inadmissible. Not remotely the case. When documentary evidence is authenticated under oath by its custodian and admitted into evidence, its weight becomes a question for the finder of fact. You are of course free to argue that they may have engaged in a conspiracy to alter the logs, but the finder of fact is free to weigh your theory and accept or reject it. Unless you have something more than “Well, they might have…” then the typical reaction is to reject it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/401 "2011-10-13T14:30:10Z")
> [@IAmError403](#): > > And considering the support and undeserved credibility they receive from the easily offended masses, it would be quite hard to protect oneself if they decided to target someone maliciously. Yes, if they started forging chat logs with my name, I don’t know how I would protect myself. Except for one tiny, itsy bitsy flaw: how do they get me to show up at the decoys house with wine, condoms and duct tape? That’s the really tricky part. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862/402 "2011-10-13T14:30:55Z")
Unbelievable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-some-people-go-to-jail-for-2-years-for-being-on-to-catch-a-predator/598862.md?page=21)