# How can the American "Culture War" be won? Or at least ended? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620 "2006-10-23T21:17:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/21 "2006-10-23T23:39:09Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] No, cultural conflict is a constant throughout all human cultures, in all time periods. And the fifties in this nation were no exception. This was a decade that saw the KKK at the height of its power, the HUAC hearings, the Beat movement, the Korean war, plus the seeds of most of the debates that are currently in full flower, as well as a few that we’ve only recently settled: women’s rights, gay rights, abortion rights. All of these issues were in play in the fifties, although they were largely overshadowed by civil rights, which had been the single biggest cultural divide in this nation for over a century. No cultural conflict in the fifties? To the contrary, today’s political climate is down-right prosaic by comparison. [/QUOTE] I think you’re spot on, although I might quibble about the KKK thing-- they were at the peak of their power in the 20s and them maybe into 30s. By the 1950s they were already in decline. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/22 "2006-10-23T23:55:39Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But – from what I know of the period’s history – none of those things produced strident conflict that became a subject of political campaigns, or public demonstrations or riots, or organized pressure groups, or any of the other features of “culture war” that we’ve lived with, off and on, since the mid-'60s. [/QUOTE] The _Brown v Board of Education_ Supreme Court decision in 1954 seems to have touched off [some protest by politicians and members of the public](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_Resistance). Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on the bus in 1955, with the [Montgomery Bus Boycott](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_Bus_Boycott) following afterward. The sit-in movement started at a Woolworth’s lunch counter in Greensboro, North Carolina, in 1960. There were organized pressure groups, called [White Citizens’ Councils](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Citizens'_Council), that were opposed to the civil rights movement. They started in the 1950s and peaked in the early 1960s. I would say those meet your criteria for a culture war. And that’s just the civil rights movement. Parents then were shocked by the [comic books their kids were reading](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estes_Kefauver) and the [music they were listening to](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley#.22A_danger_to_American_culture.22). ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/23 "2006-10-24T00:01:53Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] Conservatives talk a lot about moral values, personal responsibility, and believe things are going to hell because of a lack of belief in absolutes and authority. Liberals could counter this by engaging conservatives in a “put your money where your mouth is” cultural debate. What _are_ moral values we can agree on? Exactly _why_ is there a need for absolutes? What is the proper role for personal responsibility and authority in a large corporatist state? These and many other questions could be asked from a liberal POV that still assumes government must help people, not just control society. However, liberals (except the odd blogger perhaps) are still mostly unable or unwilling to engage and challenge the _basic premises_ of the conservative culture war, instead of just focusing on sound-bite, hot-button issues. Is this unclear, naïve, or frivolous? I don’t think so. [/QUOTE] Or just unsexy as hell? Help me out here. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/24 "2006-10-24T00:04:00Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] Parents then were shocked by the [comic books their kids were reading](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estes_Kefauver) and the [music they were listening to](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley#.22A_danger_to_American_culture.22). [/QUOTE] Yeah, if Elvis didn’t ignite a culture war, I don’t know what you’d call it. White people making Negro music, oh my!!! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/25 "2006-10-24T00:29:27Z")
There wasn’t anything “Nego” about Elvis’ music, he sang like what he was, an ignorant urban hillbilly. Of course, this was in the time when a lot of country music centered around white boys going to prison. What scared Ozzie and Harriet was they suspected, rightly, that he was singing about fucking. Like it was a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/26 "2006-10-24T00:53:51Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] There wasn’t anything “Nego” about Elvis’ music, he sang like what he was, an ignorant urban hillbilly. [/QUOTE] Elvis acknowledged that he was inspired by black music, many people who have written about him said he was influenced by black music, and one of the reasons some conservatives were so afraid of him was that his black music would corrupt white youths. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/27 "2006-10-24T01:57:22Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] And then we go back to the Granddaddy of the culture wars. Slavery, abolition, the Civil War, reconstruction. [/QUOTE] And the great-granddaddy, the American/French revolutions, among others; what might be called the anti-monarchy and anti-state religion movements. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/28 "2006-10-24T02:00:55Z")
Rock 'n Roll came out of a combination of rhythm & blues and country/hillbilly music. The former was most definitely “Negro music”. The early rockers were mostly Black musicians (think Louis Jordan and Alan Freed), and Elvis was the great White Hope of the music industry. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/29 "2006-10-24T02:33:54Z")
Half the songs Elvis sung were black songs he covered. Especially Blue Suede Shoes, by Carl Perkins. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/30 "2006-10-24T02:49:53Z")
Carl Perkins was white. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/31 "2006-10-24T03:14:53Z")
Um, cultural ferment is a \*good \* thing. It indicates a healthy, developing civilization. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/32 "2006-10-24T03:15:39Z")
Let’s put this baby to bed: > [@](#): > > [Elvis Rocks. But He’s Not the First](http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,661084,00.html) > > **Memphis says rock music began 50 years ago with a Presley cover. But black artists were making that joyful noise years earlier** > > \ > > One of Presley’s most significant contributions was this: he was able to make more of a commercial impact in rock than the black performers who pioneered the field. In fact, before he signed Presley, Phillips famously declared that “If I could find a white man who had the Negro sound and the Negro feel, I could make a billion dollars.” He found Presley, and the money followed. > > \ > > Presley was talented, yes, but he was influenced by the black musicians who came before him, and those trailblazers should not have their milestones taken away. Black performers were performing Presley’s style of music long before it was Presley’s style. Big Bill Broonzy, a blues guitarist who launched his career in the 1920s and who has been acknowledged by such rock greats as Eric Clapton as a major influence… > > \ > > Presley was not unaware of black music. In fact, he was a fan. “The colored folks been singing it and playing it just like I’m doing now, man, for more years than I know,” Elvis told reporters in 1956. “I got it from them. Down in Tupelo, Mississippi, I used to hear old Arthur Crudup bang his box the way I do now, and I said if I ever got to the place where I could feel all old Arthur felt, I’d be a music man like nobody ever saw.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/33 "2006-10-24T03:42:39Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] There wasn’t anything “Nego” about Elvis’ music… [/QUOTE] Man, that’s like saying he never wore white sequined jumpsuits. ---
**Author:** ![sunstone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunstone/32/3372_2.png) [@sunstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunstone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/34 "2006-10-24T03:43:11Z")
[QUOTE=mstay] [Limbaugh mode]Well, those secular _liberals_ keep aborting their children and using birth control. The problem should take care of itself eventually![/Limbaugh mode] Alternatively, we could wait for all the old people to die off. Would that help things much? [/QUOTE] Hmmm…that’s pretty much an assumption that all of us “old farts” are conservative in our views. Some of the older folks actually become more liberal as they (I) age, contrary to the popular conception of older people becoming more conservative. And by the way, turn down your loud car stereo, kid! [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7894558#](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7894558#) Wink ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/35 "2006-10-24T03:46:34Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Presley was not unaware of black music. In fact, he was a fan. “The colored folks been singing it and playing it just like I’m doing now, man, for more years than I know,” Elvis told reporters in 1956. “I got it from them. Down in Tupelo, Mississippi, I used to hear old Arthur Crudup bang his box the way I do now, and I said if I ever got to the place where I could feel all old Arthur felt, I’d be a music man like nobody ever saw. [/quote] Goddammit, I was just trying to find exactly this quote, but came up empty. Curse you and your Google! However, I did find these two quotes, one from each end of his career, which amused me: _His kind of music is deplorable, a rancid smelling aphrodisiac. It fosters almost totally negative and destructive reactions in young people._ -Frank Sinatra _There have been many accolades uttered about Elvis’ talent and performances through the years, all of which I agree with wholeheartedly. I shall miss him dearly as a friend. He was a warm, considerate and generous man._ -Frank Sinatra ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/36 "2006-10-24T03:53:37Z")
One more quote (from Wikipedia, but it checks out) to settle the idea that people objected to Elvis because he was performing “black” music: > [@](#): > > In an interview with PBS television, social historian Eric Lott said, “all the citizens’ councils in the South called Elvis ‘nigger music’ and were terribly afraid that Elvis, white as he was, being ambiguously raced just by being working-class, was going to corrupt the youth of America.” > > … > > Adult programmers announced they would not play Presley’s music on their radio stations due to religious convictions that his music was “devil music” and to racist beliefs that it was “nigger music.” > > … > > In August, 1956 in Jacksonville, Florida a local Juvenile Court judge called Presley a “savage” and threatened to arrest him if he shook his body while performing at Jacksonville’s Florida Theatre, justifying the restrictions by saying his music was undermining the youth of America. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/37 "2006-10-24T03:57:12Z")
But **'luci** was right about the sex angle, too. Of course, we can’t forget the drugs either. After all, everyone “knew” that Negroes were sex-crazed drug addicts. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/38 "2006-10-24T04:02:04Z")
Carl Perkins was white? Huh. I always thought that picture was a tight fro. Wasn’t. I know Elvis worked out of Sun, same as B.B. King, and did a lot of black music. So I point at the one I’m sure was a cover… and I pick the wrong one. Don’t Be Cruel, though, is one. So is Return to Sender. Hound Dog was written by a white team, but performed by a black woman. Got a copy of it somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/39 "2006-10-24T04:23:39Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] But **'luci** was right about the sex angle, too. Of course, we can’t forget the drugs either. After all, everyone “knew” that Negroes were sex-crazed drug addicts. [/QUOTE] Absolutely, and the wiki link goes into that, too, I just elided it to focus on the race angle. But like you say, you can’t really seperate the two: the sex angle was almost certainly exacerbated by the fact that his music was so strongly and unashamedly influenced by black R&B artists. However, I wasn’t aware of Elvis being associated with drug use, at least early in his career. (Later in his career obviously being a very different story) Were there specific accusations/rumors about Elvis using drugs when he was younger? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2006, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620/40 "2006-10-24T05:40:49Z")
I was unaware until earlier this month that the 1940’s especially was a time of terrible persecution _within the United States_ of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Some of it had to do with their beliefs that they shouldn’t say the Pledge of Allegiance or buy War Bonds. But the brutality was beyond anything that I had heard about. [Cite](http://www.freeminds.org/history/conflicts.htm) (My original source was a lecture by John Seigenthaler Sr. at The First Amendment Center.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-american-culture-war-be-won-or-at-least-ended/377620.md?page=3)