# How can the Universe be bigger then its age? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 28, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382 "2008-01-28T23:30:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/21 "2013-05-29T22:40:13Z")
> [@Jake](#): > > I was wondering when someone would get around to this! > Thanks, Trihs. He wrote that 5 years ago, but the pixels just arrived now. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/22 "2013-05-29T23:51:39Z")
> [@Mustakrakish](#): > > If the universe is, say, 15 billion years old, then it’s going to be about 30 billion light years across (as light from the Big Bang will have travelled 15 billion light years out from the point where the Big Bang took place). If we are off to one side, we won’t be able to see the other side. This is, of course, completely wrong. There is no “point where the Big Bang took place” and we can’t be “off to one side.” Nothing can. The Big Bang took place everywhere, all at once. Every point was “inside” the Big Bang. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/23 "2013-05-29T23:58:16Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > But this violates special relativity, doesn’t it? Nothing can move faster than the speed of light relative to anything else. If you have two photons traveling in opposite directions, they are both moving at the speed of light relative to one another. Relativity restricts the speed of anything moving _in space_. It does not restrict the space expansion effects. on edit: I _gotta_ check dates before responding. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/24 "2013-05-30T00:11:54Z")
> [@naita](#): > > This is a five year old thread, but to answer the new poster’s question, faster than light expansion violates no known laws of physics. Only movement **within** spacetime is influenced by this speed barrier, movement **of** spacetime is something different entirely. It’s not that things are **going** , it’s that **there** is changing? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/25 "2013-05-30T00:14:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **reef shark** : > > A light-year is a unit of distance, not time. Light is also not constant in speed. Gravitational time dilation might explain your question. Distance and time are the same thing, light is constant in speed, and gravitational time dilation has nothing to do with this question. Just so the record is clear. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/26 "2013-05-30T07:46:53Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > It’s not that things are **going** , it’s that **there** is changing? Almost. I’d say it isn’t that things are going, but that **between** is changing. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/27 "2013-05-30T08:40:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Distance and time are the same thing, light is constant in speed, and gravitational time dilation has nothing to do with this question. Just so the record is clear. I was waiting for this. **Chronos** , how do avoid using up a lifetime quota of :smack:'s? Your allotment for me alone must be running dry. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/28 "2013-05-30T16:13:20Z")
I don’t view such statements as :smack: moments, but as teaching opportunities, especially in a public forum such as this. I might or might not get through to the poster of the original comment (often, such a poster never returns to the thread), but I can get through to many other people. In the ideal case, the poster of the original statement does return, and explains why they thought what they did, which allows me or other knowledgeable posters to get at the root of the misconception. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/29 "2013-05-30T16:21:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t view such statements as :smack: moments, but as teaching opportunities, especially in a public forum such as this. I might or might not get through to the poster of the original comment (often, such a poster never returns to the thread), but I can get through to many other people. > > In the ideal case, the poster of the original statement does return, and explains why they thought what they did, which allows me or other knowledgeable posters to get at the root of the misconception. I am a tree of misconceptions, my roots are many. eta: and I love your posts - I usually don’t respond to them or ask many quesitons about them, but I do watch for them and read them. Bravo for the many years of contributions since I haven’t bothered to thank you previously. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/30 "2013-05-30T18:25:19Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > I was waiting for this. > > **Chronos** , how do avoid using up a lifetime quota of :smack:'s? > > Your allotment for me alone must be running dry. > [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t view such statements as :smack: moments, but as teaching opportunities, especially in a public forum such as this. I might or might not get through to the poster of the original comment (often, such a poster never returns to the thread), but I can get through to many other people.U > > In the ideal case, the poster of the original statement does return, and explains why they thought what they did, which allows me or other knowledgeable posters to get at the root of the misconception. Of course. I felt bad immediately after I posted it. It reads absolutely like a combo :rolleyes::dubious: post directed at the OP content, and by implication OP as a person. That this sentiment is wrong for any GQ post, which fights ignorance, is the Board’s primal strength. One poster’s obviousness is always some other’s ignorance, and we self-select to respond to that. It’s that, In my experience here, for example, some questions of music theory or history are so huge, mixing detail with philosophy (not unlike May in TS Eliot’s calendar), that even to begin to respond with pedagogical intent seems, and often is, unworkable. The only possible response in these cases is to respond factually _ex cathedra_, which is not my style. A lot of error is on the Internet, even that small segment of SD, and I let it flourish on its own recognizance. Even though occasionally I feel guilty for not contributing some anti-ignorance where I can. Finally, given the above, and despite its collateral damage, I intended the post to be a compliment directed to you for your constant and decade-long responsibility, responsiveness, and teaching. Except, by reflection, when you’re going mano-a-mano with other physicists, and most of us, myself include, scatter like ants when the elephants are fighting. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/31 "2013-05-30T23:02:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Distance and time are the same thing, light is constant in speed, and gravitational time dilation has nothing to do with this question. Just so the record is clear. Google is your friend. > **[Variable speed of light](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_speed_of_light)** > > A variable speed of light (VSL) is a feature of a family of hypotheses stating that the speed of light may in some way not be constant, for example, that it varies in space or time, or depending on frequency. Accepted classical theories of physics, and in particular general relativity, predict a constant speed of light in any local frame of reference and in some situations these predict apparent variations of the speed of light depending on frame of reference, but this article does not refer to t... Gravity can affect light, and time. > **[Black hole](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_holes)** > > A black hole is a massive, compact astronomical object so dense that its gravity prevents anything from escaping, even light. Albert Einstein's theory of general relativity predicts that a sufficiently compact mass will form a black hole. The boundary of no escape is called the event horizon. A black hole has a great effect on the fate and circumstances of an object crossing it, but has no locally detectable features according to general relativity. In many ways, a black hole acts like an i Hence, a light-year is a unit of distance, not time. Distance and time are separate, especially when not on earth. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/32 "2013-05-30T23:10:08Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Google is your friend. > > [Variable speed of light - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_speed_of_light) > > Gravity can affect light, and time. > > [Black hole - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_holes) > > Hence, a light-year is a unit of distance, not time. Distance and time are separate, especially when not on earth. You do realize you’re wiki citing to a professional physicist, right? ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/33 "2013-05-30T23:21:16Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You do realize you’re wiki citing to a professional physicist, right? Not much of a physicist if wiki can show him up, eh? Just kidding. I love your stuff **Chronos**! Always interesting to read. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/34 "2013-05-30T23:22:24Z")
So, just so I can be clear on this: Is it like space is the 3-dimensional hypersurface of a 4-dimensional hyperballoon that is in the process of inflating? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/35 "2013-05-30T23:25:48Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You do realize you’re wiki citing to a professional physicist, right? That is circumstantial ad hominem. Hopefully Chronos will critique the message rather than the messenger. Thanks for the heads up though. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/36 "2013-05-30T23:31:54Z")
More on the variable speed of light: [http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-205\_162-517850.html](http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-205_162-517850.html) > **[Physicists Slow Speed of Light](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/1999/02/physicists-slow-speed-of-light/)** > > Light, which normally travels the 240,000 miles from the Moon to Earth in less than two seconds, has been slowed to the speed of a minivan in rush-hour ... ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/37 "2013-05-30T23:37:02Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > More on the variable speed of light: > > [http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-205\_162-517850.html](http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-205_162-517850.html) > > [Physicists Slow Speed of Light — Harvard Gazette](http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1999/02.18/light.html) That second article deals with the speed of light through a _medium_. It’s like how the speed of light is slower through water or glass than it is through air. In these cases, _c_ still has the same value. What the “variable speed of light” crowd usually means is a hypothetical speeding up or slowing down of the speed of liight _in a vacuum_. In other words, they’re claiming that _c_ itself has changed with time. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/38 "2013-05-30T23:38:00Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > That second article deals with the speed of light through a _medium_. It’s like how the speed of light is slower through water or glass than it is through air. In these cases, _c_ still has the same value. > > What the “variable speed of light” crowd usually means is a hypothetical speeding up or slowing down of the speed of liight _in a vacuum_. In other words, they’re claiming that _c_ itself has changed with time. Granted, but space is not a perfect vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/39 "2013-05-30T23:40:13Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You do realize you’re wiki citing to a professional physicist, right? Doesn’t matter in the end, all Wiki physics articles are routed to **Chronos** ’s ISP, where he types out anew text for each Internet search. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382/40 "2013-05-30T23:54:43Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Granted, but space is not a perfect vacuum. I doubt that the density of the interstellar medium results in an index of refraction higher than 1.0000…0001, where “…” is shorthand for “a whole buttload of zeroes”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-the-universe-be-bigger-then-its-age/435382.md?page=3)