# How can there be a shortage of execution drugs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229 "2014-03-21T14:18:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Elemenopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5e925/32.png) [@Elemenopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elemenopy)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/41 "2014-03-21T20:18:16Z")
Seems to me that potassium is all that is needed to cause death (via cardiac arrest). I doubt that there will be any shortages of that. In order to be a little more humane, can’t they just add any benzodiazapene or hypnotic to induce sedation? Essentially, I’m not certain that there needs to be just \*\*\*one \*\*\*protocol for chemical execution. Note: I have no strong opinion regarding the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/42 "2014-03-21T20:42:04Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > …if their investors or board of directors have an objection, ethical, moral, or practical. …financial… Okay. They’re a business. They get to make business decisions. But if knowing all we do about the utterly sleazy, uncaring ethics of the industry and most companies in it, do you \*really \*think they refuse to make these compounds on an ethical/moral basis? Or is it just that the impact on their stock valuation would hurt too much? The answer to the subject question is “Because the only legal makers of those compounds have chosen to stop making them, despite making very close analogues (that are only technically uncertified for LI purposes), because of a potential big-finance backlash.” If you’re good with that “ethical” choice, I guess we’re done here. The solution is to take the poor, poor pharm companies off the hook by certifying the full range of compounds suitable for LI use… but now we’re back to winning a public issue by putting a string across the road so tanks can’t pass. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/43 "2014-03-21T20:45:05Z")
Whatever. If you want to nationalize pharma companies to force them to produce compounds for executing people, be my guest. But the parallels to Nazi Germany is not a far reach. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/44 "2014-03-21T20:47:27Z")
> [@Elemenopy](#): > > Seems to me that potassium is all that is needed to cause death (via cardiac arrest). I doubt that there will be any shortages of that. In order to be a little more humane, can’t they just add any benzodiazapene or hypnotic to induce sedation? Essentially, I’m not certain that there needs to be just \*\*\*one \*\*\*protocol for chemical execution. That’s precisely the problem: a \*very \*limited number of compounds are certified for the two or three stages of LI, by deliberate shaping of the laws. There are pharmacologically identical options for each of those compounds, but as they are not listed as formally approved execution drugs, they can’t be used. It’s all about the anti-DP movement, unable to reverse DP law itself, maneuvering pawns until the other pieces are boxed in. Yay for them. > [@](#): > > Note: I have no strong opinion regarding the death penalty. Nor do I, except to believe that there are a very limited number of people whose absence would make the world a better place - the genuinely evil and broken, which does not include most murderers. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/45 "2014-03-21T20:48:43Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Whatever. If you want to nationalize pharma companies to force them to produce compounds for executing people, be my guest. But the parallels to Nazi Germany is not a far reach. Excuse me? Where did I say or even imply either one, Dr. Godwin? The problem is not pharma refusing to make this handful of compounds. The problem is the anti-DP movement maneuvering the US legal system into being blocked by issues somewhere below trivial and approaching irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/46 "2014-03-21T20:52:30Z")
I’ve already recommended a method already that doesn’t require complex pharmaceutical compounds but is more humane than lethal injection too boot. “Insisting” or criticizing pharmaceutical companies for not wanting to accept the bad public relations for providing compounds which, frankly, are not humane or efficient is a non-sequitor. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/47 "2014-03-21T21:00:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Does your problem with the analogy go any deeper than, “I approve of one of those things, and disapprove of the other”? Well, that’s part of it. Why is the tactic legitimate if you approve of one, but not the other? If it is legitimate for anti-DP groups to do this, it must be equally legitimate for anti-abortion groups to do the same thing. To the extent that they are doing the same thing, and I don’t know what instances **Marley23** was talking about. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/48 "2014-03-21T21:08:42Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Simply filling a sealed chamber with pure nitrogen would cause the occupant to suffer from hypoxia and then fatal anoxia with no pain or even awareness, and if properly managed would pose minimal hazard or cost to bystanders. Wouldn’t CO be even more effective? My understanding is that anoxia is anoxia, whether it comes from blocking the air passage, drowning, or just removing O2 from the air. Isn’t there a final violent reaction in such cases? Because it so closely mimics O2, CO does not provoke such a reaction - or so my somewhat fuzzy understanding has it. The subject just… fades out. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/49 "2014-03-21T21:17:25Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > …financial… > > Okay. They’re a business. They get to make business decisions. But if knowing all we do about the utterly sleazy, uncaring ethics of the industry and most companies in it, do you \*really \*think they refuse to make these compounds on an ethical/moral basis? Or is it just that the impact on their stock valuation would hurt too much? It doesn’t matter why they make the decision. They can do it for any reason they see fit, and public pressure (from shareholders or otherwise) is a perfectly legitimate reason for a business to change its practices. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > That’s precisely the problem: a \*very \*limited number of compounds are certified for the two or three stages of LI, by deliberate shaping of the laws. There are pharmacologically identical options for each of those compounds, but as they are not listed as formally approved execution drugs, they can’t be used. Death penalty opponents do not write the laws by themselves. They can make objections and courts may find them to be legally valid. If there are “identical” drugs that do the same job and don’t violate the cruel and unusual punishment clause as it’s currently construed, death penalty supporters shouldn’t have a hard time making the relevant changes. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/50 "2014-03-21T21:29:04Z")
> [@](#): > > If there are “identical” drugs that do the same job and don’t violate the cruel and unusual punishment clause as it’s currently construed, death penalty supporters shouldn’t have a hard time making the relevant changes. In the eyes of DP opponents, there are no such drugs that don’t violate the cruel and unusual punishment clause. Therefore death penalty supporters are going to have a very hard time indeed making changes that will satisfy them. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/51 "2014-03-21T21:35:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It doesn’t matter why they make the decision. They can do it for any reason they see fit, and public pressure (from shareholders or otherwise) is a perfectly legitimate reason for a business to change its practices. We’ll have to agree to disagree here. I do not believe in a blanket policy of business for business’s sake. > [@](#): > > Death penalty opponents do not write the laws by themselves. They can make objections and courts may find them to be legally valid. If there are “identical” drugs that do the same job and don’t violate the cruel and unusual punishment clause as it’s currently construed, death penalty supporters shouldn’t have a hard time making the relevant changes. The number of things legal or illegal only by the most hair-splitting definition is almost beyond count. I’d wager that a vast number of such laws permit or obstruct something that would be otherwise by popular vote or even popular influence on the law were it not for carefully-maneuvered legal construction. It’s rarely a matter of one law; it’s often several laws delicately supporting each others’ tenuous position - which is \*exactly \*the state of things with LI drugs. If you’re arguing that the solution is one gentle tap on the beaker away, you’re denying virtually the entire battle over public law for the last century. Changing any one of the delicate laws limiting LI to this small spread of approved (and basically unavailable) substance would a a lengthy, titanic battle. Which I suspect you know. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/52 "2014-03-21T21:55:31Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Changing any one of the delicate laws limiting LI to this small spread of approved (and basically unavailable) substance would a a lengthy, titanic battle. Why do you think that might be? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/53 "2014-03-21T22:04:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > In the eyes of DP opponents, there are no such drugs that don’t violate the cruel and unusual punishment clause. Therefore death penalty supporters are going to have a very hard time indeed making changes that will satisfy them. They don’t have to satisfy me. They have to satisfy the courts, which continue to believe it’s OK to execute people as long as they don’t suffer too much. If there are identical drugs, why is that a hardship? > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > We’ll have to agree to disagree here. I do not believe in a blanket policy of business for business’s sake. Neither do I. I said businesses are allowed to make those kinds of decisions. > [@](#): > > If you’re arguing that the solution is one gentle tap on the beaker away, you’re denying virtually the entire battle over public law for the last century. You were the one who said there are drugs that are essentially identical to the approved ones. If that’s the case, why can’t they be approved by legislatures and judges who are generally favorable to capital punishment? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/54 "2014-03-21T22:28:42Z")
Pffft, repurpose an old-style gas chamber with an evacuation pump. Condemned goes in, air is pumped out to roughly the same pressure as six-miles altitude, he drops off casually to sleep and suffocates. Why do you have to make it so complicated? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/55 "2014-03-22T00:13:44Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Why do you think that might be? You’re so cute when you make those disingenuous eyes. 🙂 Because when you can’t influence courts, juries, experts or voters with a hard, cold decision on the actual topic, you play a “pawn game” with trivialities like certifications, training, notice delays and a hundred other points that grit up the machinery. Undo one, there’s fifty others still in the way while the supporting forces restore the first or find a variant someone will accept. > [@Marley23](#): > > They don’t have to satisfy me. They have to satisfy the courts, which continue to believe it’s OK to execute people as long as they don’t suffer too much. If there are identical drugs, why is that a hardship? > > You were the one who said there are drugs that are essentially identical to the approved ones. If that’s the case, why can’t they be approved by legislatures and judges who are generally favorable to capital punishment? See above. It’s not a straight-out fight over capital punishment, abortion, gun control, endangered species protection, nuclear power and the like because direct confrontations cost too much and are too risky. (No one wants to risk a solid high-court ruling against their position.) Much easier, cheaper and safer to keep throwing bits of grit in the gears - whichever way you don’t want them to turn. And the US legal system loves to play it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/56 "2014-03-22T00:17:36Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > You’re so cute when you make those disingenuous eyes. 🙂 > > Because when you can’t influence courts, juries, experts or voters with a hard, cold decision on the actual topic, you play a “pawn game” with trivialities like certifications, training, notice delays and a hundred other points that grit up the machinery. Undo one, there’s fifty others still in the way while the supporting forces restore the first or find a variant someone will accept. > > See above. It’s not a straight-out fight over capital punishment, abortion, gun control, endangered species protection, nuclear power and the like because direct confrontations cost too much and are too risky. (No one wants to risk a solid high-court ruling against their position.) Much easier, cheaper and safer to keep throwing bits of grit in the gears - whichever way you don’t want them to turn. > > And the US legal system loves to play it that way. In other words, you just object to limited government and separation of powers. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/57 "2014-03-22T00:18:55Z")
Maybe you should move to China. They have a very effecient death penalty legal system. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/58 "2014-03-22T00:20:07Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why do you have to make it so complicated? Because the cumulative interpretation of “cruel and unusual” is that if it might briefly discomfort a sensitive toddler, it can’t be used. I say whole hog or none. Ban capital punishment, or kill them exactly the way their victims died. Either we can live with that as a society, or we can’t, but it’s better either way than the endless minuet of bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/59 "2014-03-22T00:21:37Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > In other words, you just object to limited government and separation of powers. Sure. I hate Mickey Mouse, too. :rolleyes: This somehow turned into an interpretation that I’m all gung-ho for the death penalty. I’m not. My above post is as close to “pro” as my thoughts get and I’d be just as happy to see the US join the rest of the world and take capital punishment off the table. But as long as it’s on the books, and convicts are sentenced under it, I object to the pissant methods used to battle it - same as with the shit anti-abortion states use to effectively circumvent the legality of the procedure. I really don’t lose much sleep either way about the DP… but gritware lawyering does get under my skin. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229/60 "2014-03-22T00:23:09Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Sure. I hate Mickey Mouse, too. :rolleyes: I’m being serious. You’d prefer a straight up-down vote, either complete commitment to capital punishment or complete withdrawal. No nasty compromises, no web of restraining laws, no anti-democratic compromises with minority views. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-be-a-shortage-of-execution-drugs/684229.md?page=4)