# How can there ever be peace in the ME? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290 "2007-05-08T19:23:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/1 "2007-05-08T19:23:40Z")
Was just reading [this](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070508/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_hamas_mickey_mouse) article about Hamas using Mickey Mouse look-a-likes in a childrens show to basically indoctrinate children to hate Israel and the US. > [@](#): > > GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Hamas militants have enlisted the iconic Mickey Mouse to broadcast their message of Islamic dominion and armed resistance to their most impressionable audience — little kids. > > A giant black-and-white rodent — named “Farfour,” or “butterfly,” but unmistakably a Mickey ripoff — does his high-pitched preaching against the U.S. and Israel on a children’s show run each Friday on Al-Aqsa TV, a station run by Hamas. The militant group, sworn to Israel’s destruction, shares power in the Palestinian government. > > “You and I are laying the foundation for a world led by Islamists,” Farfour squeaked on a recent episode of the show, which is titled, “Tomorrow’s Pioneers.” > > “We will return the Islamic community to its former greatness, and liberate Jerusalem, God willing, liberate Iraq, God willing, and liberate all the countries of the Muslims invaded by the murderers.” > > Children call in to the show, many singing Hamas anthems about fighting Israel. > [@](#): > > In strife-ridden Gaza, however, dreams of Islamic dominion and animosity toward the U.S. and Israel are widespread. > > A Gaza-based psychologist said the program proved that the culture of glorifying violence had penetrated Palestinian society. > > “It’s the fault of both (Israel and the Palestinians),” said Samir Zakkout, from the Gaza Community Mental Health Program. “If Palestinians had peace, children wouldn’t learn violence.” > > Children have been traumatized by bloodshed in the course of Israeli attacks and Palestinian infighting, he said. > > “There’s been a collapse of values,” he said. “If I can kill my enemy, I can kill my brother.” > > Basem Abu Sumaya, head of the Palestinian Broadcasting Corp., said such programming was inappropriate. > > “I don’t think it’s professional or even humane to use children in such harsh political programs,” Abu Sumaya said. “Children’s nationalist spirit must be developed differently.” I guess for debate…is peace EVER possible in the region? No matter what happens, it seems that yet another generation is going to be brought up on a hatred of Israel…and the US of course…and such a media is going to be even more effective. I still remember some of the saturday cartoons I watched as a kid (the School House Rock ones especially…‘Oh, I’m just a Bill, yes I’m only a Bill…’). Such things have a tremendous impact on kids…and if the little cartoon or guy in a Mickey Mouse costume tells you that hating Jews and Israel (and the US) is the right thing to do, you are going to believe it at an even deeper level. Or maybe not…thats the debate I guess. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/2 "2007-05-08T19:39:26Z")
IMHO, there won’t be peace until the culture changes, which could happen anytime from a few decades to never. And it **is** possible for that level of change; look at the difference between pre WWI Europe and what it’s like now. I have an unpleasant feeling that for it to change anytime soon is going to require the same level of trauma that afflicted Europe; an Israel/ME nuclear war, for example. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/3 "2007-05-08T19:42:07Z")
Man, that sucks…though I won’t say I disagree with you on this Der Trihs. ☹ -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/4 "2007-05-08T20:04:29Z")
Oil drying up will fix a lot of things. The principal problem with the Middle East is that there’s a big money tree sitting right there, but no other way to make money. The area isn’t great farmland and any country they could trade fish with is similarly near to the ocean or sea. Essentially, there’s no way for a middle class to come into existence nor for the people of any nation to revolt since they aren’t sitting on nice arable land. The best they can do is be constant annoyances like they are being to the US right now in Iraq–but that ability mostly goes out the door as soon as a dictator comes in who’s ready to do whatever it takes to keep the people down. Of course, it wouldn’t be a big surprise to find out that the top bosses of the various nations and factions in the area have stockpiled enough money and arms that they can keep playing king of the hill for several decades even without the oil fields. The best anyone could do to try and fight the situation would be to develop a middle class through starting businesses in the area. Prosperity for the masses will be all that can make people stop the power-plays. Until then, it’s easier to hate your neighbour/America/Europe/Jews than the local evil boss since at least the neighbour is less able to kill you tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/5 "2007-05-08T20:07:11Z")
Israel’s Prime Minister Golda Meir said it 50 years ago: “There will be peace when Arabs decide they love their own children more than they hate Israel.” ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/6 "2007-05-08T20:18:03Z")
When President Reagan took office, Hamas and Hezbolla did not yet exist and the Israeli settlment of the West Bank had barely gotten underway. There was a chance then, I think, but we’ve spent the last 26 years dithering while the problem got more and more intractable. I don’t see much hope left now. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/7 "2007-05-08T20:34:56Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Oil drying up will fix a lot of things. [/QUOTE] Yup. The same tensions that you find in the Middle East are found scattered in a dozen places across the globe. But because the Middle East is sitting on a big pool of oil they have the resources to make their problems everyone’s problems. In thirty years the old will be gone, the power will be gone and the problems of the Arabs will be theirs and theirs alone. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/8 "2007-05-09T00:10:30Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Was just reading [this](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070508/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_hamas_mickey_mouse) article about Hamas using Mickey Mouse look-a-likes in a childrens show to basically indoctrinate children to hate Israel and the US. I guess for debate…is peace EVER possible in the region? No matter what happens, it seems that yet another generation is going to be brought up on a hatred of Israel…and the US of course…and such a media is going to be even more effective. I still remember some of the saturday cartoons I watched as a kid (the School House Rock ones especially…‘Oh, I’m just a Bill, yes I’m only a Bill…’). Such things have a tremendous impact on kids…and if the little cartoon or guy in a Mickey Mouse costume tells you that hating Jews and Israel (and the US) is the right thing to do, you are going to believe it at an even deeper level. Or maybe not…thats the debate I guess. -XT [/QUOTE] Unfortunately, I think most will believe it. Remember in the past, religions, countries, and their leaders have believe they will rule the world, but it didn’t happen, they were defeated. When the threat gets personal the whole world will rise up and strike them down. It happened in WWII. You personally can have peace now. Just do it. ---
**Author:** ![AdmiralCrunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@AdmiralCrunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdmiralCrunch)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/9 "2007-05-09T01:06:01Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Was just reading I guess for debate…is peace EVER possible in the region? No matter what happens, it seems that yet another generation is going to be brought up on a hatred of Israel…and the US of course…and such a media is going to be even more effective. I still remember some of the saturday cartoons I watched as a kid (the School House Rock ones especially…‘Oh, I’m just a Bill, yes I’m only a Bill…’). Such things have a tremendous impact on kids…and if the little cartoon or guy in a Mickey Mouse costume tells you that hating Jews and Israel (and the US) is the right thing to do, you are going to believe it at an even deeper level. -XT [/QUOTE] I also remember a lot of song and dance numbers about how cool recycling is, how evil cigarettes and alcohol are, and how sex is for a married couple in love. It doesn’t stop me from enjoying a cigarette after some drunken sex with that cute girl from the recycling center while she’s supposed to be sorting glass containers. I’ll be more worried when they start drugging and brainwashing kids to kill anything that moves. Like others upthread have said, it’s not what the media is putting out, it’s living in the society where this kind of garbage is acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/10 "2007-05-09T02:08:08Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] [QUOTE] I guess for debate…is peace EVER possible in the region? No matter what happens, it seems that yet another generation is going to be brought up on a hatred of Israel…and the US of course…and such a media is going to be even more effective. I still remember some of the saturday cartoons I watched as a kid (the School House Rock ones especially…‘Oh, I’m just a Bill, yes I’m only a Bill…’). Such things have a tremendous impact on kids…and if the little cartoon or guy in a Mickey Mouse costume tells you that hating Jews and Israel (and the US) is the right thing to do, you are going to believe it at an even deeper level./QUOTE] Sure, as soon as Israel cedes land to the Palestinians and stops waging scorched earth campaigns in Lebanon. As for as the Middle Eastern situation, Western powers have done nothing but add sparks to the tinderbox. Treated their domestic Middle Eastern population like animals (e.g. France, Israel, U.K). We Amerians don’t need to treat them like shit; indeed, we just throw a _[Korematsu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korematsu_v._United_States)_ brief in their general direction and wag our finger threateningly. This is what I don’t get. There is a terrible conflict in Somalia, a humanaritan crisis in Zimbabwe, and militants running rampant in Niger and Liberia. The world doesn’t even blink at the crap going on in Africa. Western powers don’t give a shit about the lives of the poor or downtrodden. If George Bush toppled Mugabe in 2001, he’d be welcomed as hero there and worldwide; We actually have people in the world who are dying for liberation. Fuck the Middle East and Iraq; let’s help people who want our help and stop with this political masturbation of trying to justify our needless (and unwanted) involvement in another region’s affairs. Will there be peace in the Middle East? Of course there will be. The Middle Eastern countries will war amongsts themselves until borders are redrawn or the rivers run with blood. While this might annoy some readers, it is clear that peace will not occur in the Middle East if we (Westerners) continue to insinuate ourselves into their religious conflicts. The first step is our exodus from the region. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/11 "2007-05-09T02:57:57Z")
Truth be told, the Middle East has more or less been in a constant state of quasi-war for around all of human history. Sometimes, a major power put the crimp on it, but raiding has pretty much been a part of life somewhere during the entire span. Of course, nothing lasts forever. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/12 "2007-05-09T03:24:01Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] Truth be told, the Middle East has more or less been in a constant state of quasi-war for around all of human history. [/QUOTE] I think that’s true of pretty much any region on the planet. I doubt that there has been a significant difference in wars per inch in the middle east than there has been anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/13 "2007-05-09T03:28:57Z")
---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/14 "2007-05-09T04:10:03Z")
**Honesty** , I had that happen a while ago. Check your quote tags; if you screw up your final quote tags it can cause your post to appear blank. That may be your problem. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/15 "2007-05-09T04:13:18Z")
I think peace is possible but it would be a huge project. First, you’d need to start building a solid middle class - people with jobs are a lot less susceptible to fanaticism. Second, you need to secularize education - most of what passes for public education in the Middle East is just religious indoctrination. You’d still have a region with political problems but you’d lose most of the craziness. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/16 "2007-05-09T04:29:57Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] I guess for debate…is peace EVER possible in the region? No matter what happens, it seems that yet another generation is going to be brought up on a hatred of Israel…and the US of course…and such a media is going to be even more effective. I still remember some of the saturday cartoons I watched as a kid (the School House Rock ones especially…‘Oh, I’m just a Bill, yes I’m only a Bill…’). Such things have a tremendous impact on kids…and if the little cartoon or guy in a Mickey Mouse costume tells you that hating Jews and Israel (and the US) is the right thing to do, you are going to believe it at an even deeper level. [/QUOTE] Sure, as soon as Israel cedes land to the Palestinians and stops waging scorched earth campaigns in Lebanon. As for as the Middle Eastern situation, Western powers have done nothing but add sparks to the tinderbox. Treated their domestic Middle Eastern population like animals (e.g. France, Israel, U.K). We Amerians don’t need to treat them like shit; indeed, we just throw a _[Korematsu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korematsu_v._United_States)_ brief in their general direction and wag our finger threateningly. This is what I don’t get. There is a terrible conflict in Somalia, a humanaritan crisis in Zimbabwe, and militants running rampant in Niger and Liberia. The world doesn’t even blink at the crap going on in Africa. If George Bush toppled Mugabe in 2001, he’d be welcomed as hero there and worldwide; We actually have people in the world who are dying for liberation. Fuck the Middle East and Iraq; let’s help people who want our help and stop with this political masturbation of trying to justify our needless (and unwanted) involvement in another region’s affairs. Will there be peace in the Middle East? Of course there will be. The Middle Eastern countries will war amongsts themselves until borders are redrawn or the rivers run with blood. While this might annoy some readers, it is clear that peace will not occur in the Middle East if we (Westerners) continue to insinuate ourselves into their religious conflicts. The first step is our exodus from the region. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/17 "2007-05-09T04:40:14Z")
Wow, I bet Disney sure would love to sue Hamas right about now. (Actually, and correct me if I’m wrong, they could sue them in a US court, but collecting is going to be an issue…) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/18 "2007-05-09T04:44:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Sure, as soon as Israel cedes land to the Palestinians and stops waging scorched earth campaigns in Lebanon. The Middle East was peaceful before Israel existed? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/19 "2007-05-09T04:54:18Z")
As a friend of mine (A Jew) who did some activism in the West Bank said. “Hamas doesn’t need to teach kids to hate Jews, the rubber bullets do it just fine.”, he said this after he told me the story of being fired upon by the IDF. One of the major problems that makes things so intractable is that a lot of the technology that is used to get the oil from the ground to your car is monopolized by the US and Canada. Most of the Arab states could not repair their refineries without parts from western companies. When the West comes in and builds oil infrastructure, (That’s Halliburton’s product) we of course want a return on our investment, so we help the strongmen keep power so as to maintain our access to their oil. The Islamists want us out, but we are protecting our investment. I doubt oil running out would cause the strife to stop. Some sort of Islamic version of the Age of Enlightenment would be necessary to calm the ethnic strife that is there. Perhaps a conglomerate of Saudi rulers imposing a Middle-East wide EU style thing and building infrastructure could happen. Bringing better jobs to the people might help something too. Who knows, we’ll see what happens out of Dubai, with it becoming like the New York of the Middle-East. America is only peaceful because we killed the native tribes. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290/20 "2007-05-09T05:24:47Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] The Middle East was peaceful before Israel existed? [/QUOTE] No, but they weren’t using state-of-the-art American techology to wage war. There is a big difference between a musket and a F-16. No one is saying that Israel is bringing the blanket of chaos to the region but when the country treats the Israeli-Arab citizens [like this](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070508/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_airport_security), you can’t say that the country is trying to engender peace in the region. - Honesty [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-there-ever-be-peace-in-the-me/403290.md?page=2)