# How can they make Troy without Cassandra? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 4, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529 "2004-05-04T21:24:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/1 "2004-05-04T21:24:16Z")
I looked [here](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0332452/fullcredits), but I didn’t see Cassandra listed. Now, I’m going to see this movie, just because it’s got Brad Pitt and Orlando Bloom in it, but I’m curious. Maybe I’ve read _Firebrand_ once too often, but I thought Cassandra was a rather important character, being a seer and Paris’s twin. Is she not considered a major character, outside Marion Zimmer-Bradley’s universe? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/2 "2004-05-04T21:36:16Z")
Cassandra is a minor character in the Illiad. I think she’s mentioned twice…first, in a passage talking about Othryoneus of Cabesus: > [@](#): > > He sought Cassandra the fairest of Priam’s daughters in marriage, but offered no gifts of wooing, for he promised a great thing, to wit, that he would drive the sons of the Achaeans willy nilly from Troy; old King Priam had given his consent and promised her to him, whereon he fought on the strength of the promises thus made to him. and then mourning Hector > [@](#): > > Priam and Idaeus then drove on toward the city lamenting and making moan, and the mules drew the body of Hector. No one neither man nor woman saw them, till Cassandra, fair as golden Venus standing on Pergamus, caught sight of her dear father in his chariot, and his servant that was the city’s herald with him. Then she saw him that was lying upon the bier, drawn by the mules, and with a loud cry she went about the city saying, "Come hither Trojans, men and women, and look on Hector; if ever you rejoiced to see him coming from battle when he was alive, look now on him that was the glory of our city and all our people. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/3 "2004-05-04T21:57:39Z")
Is the movie supposed to be a retelling of the Iliad, or a retelling of the Trojan War? It’s a big difference, because the Iliad ends in the middle of the war. The Trojan Horse story isn’t in the Iliad, and Cassandra’s major role is during that episode, so if _Troy_ ends right where the Iliad does, Cassandra doesn’t have much of a part to play. If _Troy_ is the story of the whole war, though, Cassandra should be in there trying to warn the Trojans. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/4 "2004-05-04T22:44:40Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > I looked [here](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0332452/fullcredits), but I didn’t see Cassandra listed. > > Now, I’m going to see this movie, just because it’s got Brad Pitt and Orlando Bloom in it, but I’m curious. > > Maybe I’ve read _Firebrand_ once too often, but I thought Cassandra was a rather important character, being a seer and Paris’s twin. Is she not considered a major character, outside Marion Zimmer-Bradley’s universe? I TRIED to warn you all that this would happen, but nobody believed me! ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/5 "2004-05-04T23:04:20Z")
Plus, considering the story of the movie seems to be cutting out all godly involvment, how would you fit in both the SEEING and the NOT BELIEVING? It seems to me like it’d be rather awkward. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/6 "2004-05-05T00:11:23Z")
> [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > Is the movie supposed to be a retelling of the Iliad, or a retelling of the Trojan War? It’s a big difference, because the Iliad ends in the middle of the war. It also **begins** in the middle of the war, as I recall. Really, _The Iliad_ is to the Trojan War what _The Battle of the Bulge_ is to World War II. ---
**Author:** ![SuperNova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SuperNova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuperNova)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/7 "2004-05-05T00:18:09Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > It also **begins** in the middle of the war, as I recall. > > Really, _The Iliad_ is to the Trojan War what _The Battle of the Bulge_ is to World War II. That’s sort of true, but the Illiad certainly covers more than one battle. I mean, it’s weird many of the most famous events of the Trojan War (the Trojan horse, the death of Achilles) actually DO NOT happen in the poem. That being said, those things are hinted at to an extent, and referenced back to in the Odyssey. I to am curious. Does this new movie cover the war, or the poem? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/8 "2004-05-05T02:26:03Z")
Okay, I’ll admit it…I haven’t gotten around to reading the _Illiad_. Where does the story of the Trojan Horse come from if not from this poem? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/9 "2004-05-05T02:34:47Z")
The best known account of the Trojan Horse is in the Aeneid, by Vergil. The story is told from the point of view of Trojan prince Aeneas, one of the few Trojans to escape from the Greeks. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/10 "2004-05-05T05:05:49Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Maybe I’ve read _Firebrand_ once too often, but I thought Cassandra was a rather important character, being a seer and Paris’s twin. Is she not considered a major character, outside Marion Zimmer-Bradley’s universe? Frankly, reading _Firebrand_ once is once too much. What a godawful book. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/11 "2004-05-05T05:41:58Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > The best known account of the Trojan Horse is in the Aeneid, by Vergil. Doesn’t _The Odyssey_ mention the Horse, too? I know it mentions the death of Achilles. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/12 "2004-05-05T06:29:45Z")
Who cares who it leaves out? It’s got Brad Pitt and Orlando Bloom in those little loincloth thingies. It could be two hours of them standing around (with brief bouts of bending and stretching, of course), and I’d pay $8 to see it. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/13 "2004-05-05T06:39:34Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I TRIED to warn you all that this would happen, but nobody believed me! **astorian** , I can not even begin to express how furious I am with you for getting this joke in before me! The _only_ reason I clicked on this Thread was so that I could use that joke! Horrible things will happen if you continue to steal jokes from **bienville**. Don’t believe me? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/14 "2004-05-05T12:24:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Frankly, reading _Firebrand_ once is once too much. What a godawful book. I liked it, although _Mists of Avalon_ is better. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/15 "2004-05-05T12:34:07Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > **astorian** , I can not even begin to express how furious I am with you for getting this joke in before me! Yeah, you suck, man. I was going with… “I **HATE** people who give away the endings!” ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/16 "2004-05-05T15:27:40Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > Doesn’t _The Odyssey_ mention the Horse, too? I know it mentions the death of Achilles. The Iliad only covers a very small part of the Trojan war. It doesn’t tell us about the beginning or the end of the conflict. The Iliad begins with a lull in the action (as Achilles sits, sulking, in his tent) and ends with the funeral of Troy’s greatest warrior, Hector. But the war did NOT end with Hector’s death. There are many legends of how the war started, of what happened in the early stages of the war, and what happened after the death of Hector. Most legends say the war continued for several years after the point where the Iliad ends. Supposedly, before the war ended, Achilles was killed by Paris, who got him in the heel with a poisoned arrow. The legend of the Trojan Horse long predates Vergil, but his account of it, in the Aeneid, is the best known. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/17 "2004-05-05T21:37:49Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > I looked [here](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0332452/fullcredits), but I didn’t see Cassandra listed. > > Now, I’m going to see this movie, just because it’s got Brad Pitt and Orlando Bloom in it, but I’m curious. > > Maybe I’ve read _Firebrand_ once too often, but I thought Cassandra was a rather important character, being a seer and Paris’s twin. Is she not considered a major character, outside Marion Zimmer-Bradley’s universe? Were my eyes deceiving me or was that Brad Pitt climbing into the Trojan horse? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/18 "2004-05-05T22:01:04Z")
> [@](#): > > There are many legends of how the war started, of what happened in the early stages of the war, and what happened after the death of Hector. Most legends say the war continued for several years after the point where the Iliad ends. Supposedly, before the war ended, Achilles was killed by Paris, who got him in the heel with a poisoned arrow. Doesn’t the _Odyssea_ say that the war lasted a total of ten years, and doesn’t the _Iliad_ take place nearly ten years into the war? Together, that would mean that the war ended fairly quickly after the events of the _Iliad_, certainly less than “several years”. Also, I’m pretty sure that there’s at least a rudimentary account of the Horse in the _Odyssea_, which would well predate Virgil, and is probably at least as well known. ---
**Author:** ![Melandry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Melandry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melandry)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/19 "2004-05-05T22:20:40Z")
Yes, the _Odyssey_ contains the famous description (from the section where Telemachus, Odysseus’ son, is visiting Helen and Menelaus at home after the war) of Helen walking around the Trojan Horse imitating the voices of the wives of the men inside to try and rile them up (for what purpose is unclear). However, **astorian** is correct that the account of the Trojan Horse in the _Aeneid_ is the most complete and famous in ancient literature. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529/20 "2004-05-05T22:49:59Z")
> [@SuperNova](#): > > That’s sort of true, but the Illiad certainly covers more than one battle. I mean, it’s weird many of the most famous events of the Trojan War (the Trojan horse, the death of Achilles) actually DO NOT happen in the poem. That being said, those things are hinted at to an extent, and referenced back to in the Odyssey. > > I to am curious. Does this new movie cover the war, or the poem? It bases itself around the poem to cover the rest of the war. As _Empire_ magazine just said, “…ancient Greek homosexuality is not the stuff of modern international blockbusters”. Anyway, how is Cassandra so enormously significant? Her role in the war goes thusly: CASSANDRA: Don’t do that, or we’re all doomed! OMNES: Shut up, you dopey cow! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-they-make-troy-without-cassandra/243529.md?page=2)