# How can this legal problem with self-driving cars be solved? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-this-legal-problem-with-self-driving-cars-be-solved/672591 "2013-10-29T21:01:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-this-legal-problem-with-self-driving-cars-be-solved/672591/61 "2013-10-31T19:14:57Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Yeah, that was a good point. I bet this: that if we get to a “car rental” society, it will be via a subscription model for most people… and, surprise! That subscription model will somehow price itself out to about the same as paying for a new car and insurance (adjusted for inflation, of course.) So if this were available today, if I were fine with a bunch of Nissan Versa’s and Ford Focus’s, I would pay about $250-350/month for the service, but if I wanted something in the Lexus/Infiniti range, I would pay $500-1,000/month. > > So the consumers get better cars, but in reality we would have fewer of them and don’t really own anything… _but we end up paying the same._ > > Bastards! I’m already pissing myself off about this. 😉 > > Regardless, I also would not be surprised if the more efficient driving has a measurable (positive) impact on fuel economy. Why would this be true? In this particular scenario, it’s a free market with no barriers to entry. If I want to open up “Joe’s discount car rental service” in a particular city, I just buy some used self driving cars and charge users a price that undercuts the competition but is still profitable to me. In this scenario, what happens is that the market price becomes just **cost** + razor thin profit margin. Now, think about the costs. If you rent a car from Hertz car rental, that car is a $10,000-$30,000 asset that they no longer have available until you return it some days later. If you rent a robo-taxi, they only lose the taxi for as long as it takes you to reach your destination and for the taxi to make it back to dispatch. Self-Driving cars will probably be more expensive than we pay for automobiles now, true. The massive amount of sensors and electronics they need could easily add $10,000+ to the cost even in full scale mass production. Still, that’s a small factor compared to all the other costs of owning and operating a vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-this-legal-problem-with-self-driving-cars-be-solved/672591/62 "2013-10-31T19:17:06Z")
First of all, let me point out that self-driving cars should be mandatory for a lot of posters in this thread. This isn’t the Pit so I’ll temper my response - let’s just say that people should know that there is a major difference between a dedicated hardware and software system like a self-driving car would have vs the general purpose computer cobbled together with a general purpose OS like people are using for an example. Ultimately, the legal issue will be that an owner will be responsible for their car just like now. I suspect a selling point would be lower insurance rates because by the OP’s numbers the SDC will drive better than 90% of the population. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-this-legal-problem-with-self-driving-cars-be-solved/672591/63 "2013-10-31T22:37:58Z")
[An interesting page.](http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/wiki/index.php/Automated_Driving:_Legislative_and_Regulatory_Action) Hawaii “exempts a nonreckless guided operator from liability.” Meanwhile Wasington’s version states that a “licensed driver is legally responsible for the autonomous vehicle for traffic infractions and criminal offenses in the same manner as a driver of a nonautonomous vehicle.” At some point common standards will have to emerge. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-this-legal-problem-with-self-driving-cars-be-solved/672591/64 "2013-10-31T23:03:10Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Still, that’s a small factor compared to all the other costs of owning and operating a vehicle. Mix that with electrics like a nissan leaf and some flavor of automated charging stations in various strategic locations around town and fuel becomes a negligible cost. Electrics also do not require alot of the regular preventative maintenance that regular cars do like various fluid changes or smog checks. Make arrangements with a few large retailers who might just happily pay for the power just as an incentive to customers who use the car service as “off duty” cars tend to charge in the parking lot making it quick to leave store with minimal waiting. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-this-legal-problem-with-self-driving-cars-be-solved/672591/65 "2013-11-01T00:53:05Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > I just read an article in Bloomberg speculating that the Japanese will be early adopters because of (1) their rapidly aging population (the elderly are involved in a disproportionate number of their traffic accidents and there will only be more of this in the future) and (2) young people are less inclined to drive. Japanese in their 20s now account for only 13% of total license-holders, down from 26% 30 years ago, a faster decline than the group’s share of the population. > > The same demographics are occurring here as well, just not as dramatically. As always, youth will be the first adapters of new technology but this is one that will have strong appeal to the elderly, too. SDCs mean that we won’t have to take grandma’s keys away from her even if it might mean that she keeps punching in the wrong destination code on her car’s computer and winding up in Albuquerque instead of Al’s Grocery Mart. I think Singapore is a prime candidate to be an early adopter - a) the country is really small, so mapping roads down to very precise dimensions is (relatively) easy b) Cars are already grossly expensive - so the cost is not so much of a worry (typically a subcompact goes for about $70,000 USD at the moment) c) The govt has tonnes of money d) It’s got very well developed infrastructure e) There is a “license” to own a car - which must be renewed every ten years. This means the car fleet is young AND it is (80%) replaced within a 10 year window - so there is a shorter time to critical mass ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-this-legal-problem-with-self-driving-cars-be-solved/672591/66 "2013-11-01T01:00:11Z")
> [@Mithras](#): > > I was picturing the types of cars changing entirely. Say you put in a request for a car each time you need one based on what you’re doing with it. If you’re going to work, you just need a seat and an engine. If you’re doing grocery shopping, the car that shows up will have a trunk. If you’re picking up a piece of furniture, maybe something more truck-like shows up. But the times where people need a vehicle with 5+ seats and the ability to haul cargo probably do not cover the majority of the miles driven. If we can cut down on the materials to construct them and the fuel needed to move those cars around, there might be some savings there. > > Costs could also be brought down if people are willing to share a ride with strangers. If you’re using a car that’s taking you to work half an hour away and there’s three other people within half a mile of you going to the same general area at the same time, there’s no reason beyond it being a bit weird that you can’t all get taken to work in the same automatic car. > > I believe that it could be managed so that there’s not too much waste due to empty cars driving around. The car likely won’t go back to its garage after it takes you wherever you’re going. Instead, it’ll be sent to pick up someone nearby. > > Parking of cars in off-peak times and automatic refueling are probably going to be interesting things to see. I’m imagining something similar in terms of “seats” - But based on units of 90 cm wide by 1.3m long - which should be very comfortable for just a seat. each will be self contained. They will “link” to make units roughly equivalent to current cars. two of you travelling? Get two “units” - they will couple and the central divider will retract. You and a stranger going to work - the vehicles will couple, but the privacy wall remains in place. Need space for your groceries? It’ll either be a 90cm x 130 cm seat plus a 90cm x 130 cm bucket beside OR - if you are a couple 2 seats plus two buckets behind. Need furniture delivered? Then four “cargo carriers” will couple to give you a pallet 1.8m x 2.6m (or 3.9m if needed) - remember, the shop can load it, and dispatch it then you (or whoever) can unload it at the destination. As to the concern of empty vehicles running around - I think this will be more than offset by a reduction in the number of needless trips i.e drop kids to school, drive home - if the kids are big enough to get themselves to school the drive home part is now not needed. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-this-legal-problem-with-self-driving-cars-be-solved/672591/67 "2013-11-01T01:08:22Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I bet this: that if we get to a “car rental” society, it will be via a subscription model for most people… and, surprise! That subscription model will somehow price itself out to about the same as paying for a new car and insurance (adjusted for inflation, of course.) So if this were available today, if I were fine with a bunch of Nissan Versa’s and Ford Focus’s, I would pay about $250-350/month for the service, but if I wanted something in the Lexus/Infiniti range, I would pay $500-1,000/month. > > So the consumers get better cars, but in reality we would have fewer of them and don’t really own anything… _but we end up paying the same._ > > Bastards! I’m already pissing myself off about this. ;). That doesn’t make the slightest bit of sense. Even considering the additional cost to maintain the cars (cleaning, washing, maintenance, etc) and the fact that there would have to be substantial redundancy (for rush hour, longer trips on weekends, etc) there would still be multiple users of the cars. There’s no way a business would develop where a company would be pulling in, say, a few thousand dollars of revenue per month per each car. A company like that would be obscenely profitable, and competition would surely lower the price substantially. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-this-legal-problem-with-self-driving-cars-be-solved/672591/68 "2013-11-01T01:21:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > That doesn’t make the slightest bit of sense. Even considering the additional cost to maintain the cars (cleaning, washing, maintenance, etc) and the fact that there would have to be substantial redundancy (for rush hour, longer trips on weekends, etc) there would still be multiple users of the cars. There’s no way a business would develop where a company would be pulling in, say, a few thousand dollars of revenue per month per each car. A company like that would be obscenely profitable, and competition would surely lower the price substantially. +1 to this. The only way this happens is when artificial or natural barriers prevent competition. It’s funny you mentioned cellular phones, because the cellular phone providers occupy a natural monopoly. There is a finite amount of RF spectrum available at all, and 3 companies own almost all of it. No one new can enter the market, because all the available RF spectrum has already been sold. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-this-legal-problem-with-self-driving-cars-be-solved/672591/69 "2013-11-09T23:33:55Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > I just read an article in Bloomberg speculating that the Japanese will be early adopters because of … Bumping to add [this article](http://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/29/9785.full) of relevance to this prediction. > [@](#): > > Nissan’s Autonomous Drive test car has taken to the public roads in Japan for the first time, with the country’s Prime Minister Shinzo Abe on board. The all-electric Nissan LEAF vehicle, which was the first with autonomous drive capability (earlier post) to be granted a license plate in Japan, drove on the roads around the National Diet Front Garden, a public park in the center of Tokyo between Japan’s parliament and the Imperial Palace. > > The attendance of the Prime Minister underlines the support of Japan’s government for the development of autonomously driven vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![computergeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@computergeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/computergeek)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-this-legal-problem-with-self-driving-cars-be-solved/672591/70 "2013-11-21T03:30:09Z")
From yesterday’s USA Today: [GM exec to Congress: Self-driving cars are not ready](http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/11/19/gm-exec-tells-congress-self-driving-cars-not-ready/3642727/) They all seem to be afraid of the liability issue and think doing it piecemeal for now, with the driver in control, seems to be the way to go. There are some that want to jump right in, but perhaps the best way is the somewhat slower approach until the law catches up and society gets used to more automated cars. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-this-legal-problem-with-self-driving-cars-be-solved/672591.md?page=3)