# How can Trump get around the 14th Amendment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [December 9, 2024, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368 "2024-12-09T01:15:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/61 "2024-12-10T01:48:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > This requires 60 votes in the Senate, which they don’t have, so first they’ll need to flip 7 seats in the 2022 election. Not only that, the GOp will have to get it past the House with a razor thing majority. Aint gonna happen. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > SCOTUS has given the president carte blanche to do whatever they please because there are no repercussions. This is not true. How can he? The same way he built the wall and got Mexico to pay for it. The same way he ended Obamacare and come up with his “better plan.” ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/62 "2024-12-10T01:59:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He won’t be president anymore by the time it gets there. “Should several million people be retroactively stripped of their citizenship?” isn’t a question any court is going to be able to resolve quickly I think you’re overestimating how slowly the judicial gears grind. Trump had several cases challenging his actions in his first term such as the Muslim ban and border wall funding reach the SC while he was still in office. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/63 "2024-12-10T02:12:44Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > Trump had several cases challenging his actions in his first term such as the Muslim ban and border wall funding reach the SC while he was still in office. None of those involved redefining a core constitutional principle which would affect the citizenship status of potentially every single person in the country. What if, for example, you were born in Canada to an American mother and a Canary Islander father who was born in Cuba? And, as I noted when initially addressing the hypothetical, they can’t even start on a project like this unless they somehow gain 7 Senate seats first. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/64 "2024-12-10T02:25:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What if, for example, you were born in Canada to an American mother and a Canary Islander father who was born in Cuba? We don’t want him back. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/65 "2024-12-10T02:48:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > None of those involved redefining a core constitutional principle which would affect the citizenship status of potentially every single person in the country. What if, for example, you were born in Canada to an American mother and a Canary Islander father who was born in Cuba? > > And, as I noted when initially addressing the hypothetical, they can’t even start on a project like this unless they somehow gain 7 Senate seats first. I’m not sure why a case involving a core constitutional principle that impacts millions of people would slow a case down. You could argue that the Muslim ban and the border wall cases fit these criteria. If anything, the courts would likely want to fast track such a case. As for needing the Senate, what’s been floated on the right is that he could declare illegal immigration to be an “invasion” and therefore the children of such invaders would not be eligible for birthright citizenship. And then he can order his Administration to deny them any rights or benefits reserved for citizens – access to federal aid programs, being eligible for federal hiring, etc. Obviously, I disagree with both the Constitutionality and morality of such a move, but that’s how he can force the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/66 "2024-12-10T03:04:49Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > As for needing the Senate, what’s been floated on the right is that he could declare illegal immigration to be an “invasion” and therefore the children of such invaders would not be eligible for birthright citizenship. Or just have the “immigrants” shot and bombed like we would an _actual_ invasion. By all accounts the Trumpites are frothing at the mouth over the idea of a military attack on Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/67 "2024-12-10T03:08:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What if, for example, you were born in Canada to an American mother and a Canary Islander father who was born in Cuba? Then you are an American citizen under jus sanguinis. That was easy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/68 "2024-12-10T03:08:33Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > As for needing the Senate, what’s been floated on the right is that he could declare illegal immigration to be an “invasion” and therefore the children of such invaders would not be eligible for birthright citizenship. I’m not aware of any Constitutional provision that allows the president to arbitrarily declare someone an “invader”. Is Congress going to declare war on everything south of the Rio Grande? Birthright citizenship is enshrined in federal legislation. To change that, you have to change the legislation, and they don’t have the votes for that. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/69 "2024-12-10T03:09:58Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Then you are an American citizen under jus sanguinis. That was easy. How do you know his mother was an American? If Trump’s view is implemented, then a birth certificate is not proof of citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/70 "2024-12-10T03:13:53Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Then you are an American citizen under jus sanguinis. How do we know his mother was a citizen? What if her great-grandparents weren’t citizens? If this purely hypothetical person (let’s call him, I don’t know, Edward) is a citizen, is he a natural-born one? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/71 "2024-12-10T03:15:04Z")
They might well have the votes to end birthright citizenship. All they have to do is end the filibuster in the Senate (or at least make an exception) and have the House GOP vote in unison. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/72 "2024-12-10T03:17:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m not aware of any Constitutional provision that allows the president to arbitrarily declare someone an “invader”. The President is the the commander in chief, he can order an attack anytime he pleases on anything. And [does](https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/article-2/section-2/clause-1/commander-in-chief-power-doctrine-and-practice) have the power to decide if the US is being attacked. As for the Constitution? You keep bringing it up but it doesn’t matter. Trump doesn’t care and the Supreme Court will just rubberstamp whatever he wants to do as constitutional. It’s a dead letter now. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/73 "2024-12-10T03:21:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Birthright citizenship is enshrined in federal legislation. To change that, you have to change the legislation, and they don’t have the votes for that. However he does it, Trump would be claiming that any statute that enshrines birthright citizenship is in conflict with the meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” under the 14th Amendment and therefore unconstitutional. And he would order his Administration to act in accordance with his, Constitutional, interpretation. And the courts would have to resolve it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/74 "2024-12-10T03:33:32Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > All they have to do is end the filibuster in the Senate Which the new Majority Leader has made it absolutely clear will not be happening. > **[Republicans promise to protect the Senate filibuster, even if it hinders...](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/republicans-promise-protect-senate-filibuster-even-hinders-trumps-agen-rcna179893)** > > Many Republican senators, including incoming Majority Leader John Thune of South Dakota, say they will preserve the 60-vote threshold to pass most legislation while they're in power. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/75 "2024-12-10T03:38:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > the Supreme Court will just rubberstamp whatever he wants to do as constitutional. Which is why Joe Biden was never president, since the Supreme Court rubber-stamped Trump’s lawsuits in 2020 and declared him the winner. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/76 "2024-12-10T03:54:11Z")
You keep saying that as if the situation hadn’t changed. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/77 "2024-12-10T04:03:14Z")
That is so tiring as is the whole “He didn’t get _everything_, and this is obviously solid evidence that he isn’t going to get _anything_” schtick I hear over and over again. It also ignores that the Senate, the House and the Supreme Court have changed and evolved (devolved?) over the last few years. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/78 "2024-12-10T04:33:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That is so tiring as is the whole “He didn’t get _everything_, and this is obviously solid evidence that he isn’t going to get _anything_” schtick I hear over and over again. I could say the same thing about the “He’s going to get everything he wants because the Supreme Court will automatically take his side no matter what and nobody can stop him” schtick I hear over and over again. Shouldn’t you be off actively fighting the Supreme Court’s rulings, BTW? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/79 "2024-12-10T04:35:34Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > However he does it, Trump would be claiming that any statute that enshrines birthright citizenship is in conflict with the meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” under the 14th Amendment and therefore unconstitutional. To be fair, Congress has always had the power (or at least… has always exercised the power) to extend birthright citizenship. There is nothing in the Constitution saying that the children of US citizens born abroad are citizens by birth, and yet, here I am. Unless and until I become an enemy of the Trump administration, in which case maybe they find a way to strip me of my citizenship too. But for now, here I am: a citizen from birth by statute, not under the 14th amendment or any other express provision of the Constitution. The 14th amendment was necessary because of the abhorrent decision in _Dred Scott_, which (erroneously) stated that the descendants of slaves specifically could never be citizens of any US state, and thus could never be citizens of the US based on the founders’ intent under the Constituion. It wasn’t tasked with deciding whether other classes of people could be citizens and whether Congress had the power to enact laws making the children of non-citizens born in the US citizens by birth provided they were not also descended from slaves of recent (on an evolutionary timeframe) African ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/80 "2024-12-10T05:03:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I could say the same thing about the “He’s going to get everything he wants because the Supreme Court will automatically take his side no matter what and nobody can stop him” schtick I hear over and over again. You could, if that were actually happening…and what I personally do off-line is a bit off-topic, don’t you think? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368.md?page=5)