# How can Trump get around the 14th Amendment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [December 9, 2024, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368 "2024-12-09T01:15:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/101 "2024-12-10T19:43:16Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > **Piper** , being Canadian, has likely never seen how enormous the set of volumes is that is called “the regs”. I have actually, back when they were all printed in soft-cover books, because the interweb thing hadn’t been invented yet, and they got updated all the time. They were on the shelves next to the multi-volume hard cover maroon USCode. Together, they took up a huge amount of library space. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/102 "2024-12-10T21:30:06Z")
And every department has its own set of regs on top of the USCode. I got into a huge pissing match with some bureaucrat about a travel claim I filed. He was deliberately reading the regulation wrong and trying to deny my lodging expenses. He finally relented when I threatened to drive up to Bonn and have it out in person with him and his supervisor. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2024, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/103 "2024-12-11T00:47:32Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Whether SCOTUS would ultimately allow a President to unilaterally declare some arbitrary group of people “invaders”, and thus remove the protections of the 14th amendment, is (amazingly) anybody’s guess at this point. The mere (however fanciful) possibility of an invasion got us _Korematsu_ (upholding the government’s constitutional authority to exclude US citizens of recent Japanese ancestry from the west coast, or else…). National security is a powerful concern that, when successfully invoked, often has courts, up to the Supreme Court, insisting they are in no position to get involved or to overrule the executive, who is commander in chief after all. > But I imagine it would not be a blanket “nobody gets citizenship at birth anymore” EO, but rather one that says “no children born after Feb 1, 2025 to parents who are foreign invaders from the following countries (Mexico, Venezuela, Ecuador, etc) shall be issued citizenship-affirming documents because this administration does not consider them “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United State as required by the 14th amendment”. More likely, it would state that people of prescribed ancestry born after a certain date (as you describe) would not be citizens. States might then be encouraged, but not required, to inquire into and document parents’ citizenship status as part of issuing a birth certificate. Those states that decline to do so likely cannot be compelled into doing so (although, they could perhaps be gently coerced into doing it by making receipt of certain federal funds, perhaps law enforcement, highway, or what remains of Medicaid funding conditional on issuance of acceptable birth certificates according to acceptable processes). However, their citizens (to say nothing of their noncitizens) could be disadvantaged as certain state or federal benefits (talking social security, Medicaid, SNAP, etc) require proof of citizenship or eligible immigration status. Citizens with non-compliant birth certificates may then be required to present additional documentation as evidence of their citizenship, above and beyond heir US birth certificate. > There are also some practical enforcement issues, in that I’m not sure that the federal government can require a state to verify and list parental immigration status on birth certificates. So it’s not entirely clear to me how the State Department (for example) would be able to deny a passport to a baby born in California (for example, if they don’t go along with verifying parental citizenship) without adding additional paperwork requirements that don’t currently exist to _all_ passport applications. By, as described above, declining to accept a non-compliant birth certificate (issued by, say, California, assuming California balks) as proof of US citizenship, requiring additional evidence of citizenship above and beyond the birth certificate. Not unlike how my birth certificate (which correctly states I was born in Japan) is insufficient evidence of my citizenship. I had to present my Consular Report of Birth Abroad as well (for my initial passport application, and perhaps for my next renewal too if Trump is successful in weakening birthright citizenship). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2024, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/104 "2024-12-11T01:08:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > This is not true. > > How can he? The same way he built the wall and got Mexico to pay for it. The same way he ended Obamacare and come up with his “better plan.” He can’t possibly get Mexico to pay for anything short of tariffs and then it is still not Mexico paying for it because he has no control over how Mexico spends money and never will. But, he can divert money the US is spending for such a task and/or get congress to agree to pay for it. And Obamacare came within a whisker of going down under the first Trump admin (one vote). This time Trump has the whole government. All branches will be under his control and, as mentioned, SCOTUS has granted the president basically free reign to do as he/she pleases with no repercussions. I’m not sure why you think Trump will show restraint? Project 2025 has laid out the path to power. You think they will not try? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2024, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/105 "2024-12-11T01:14:16Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > This time Trump has the whole government. All branches will be under his control Just as they were in 2017, when, as you note, he couldn’t even get Obamacare repealed, and that was under reconciliation rules where it couldn’t be filibustered. This time he has a smaller House margin, and changes to the Citizenship Act aren’t eligible to be passed by reconciliation. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > SCOTUS has granted the president basically free reign to do as he/she pleases with no repercussions. Qualified immunity for official acts is not “free reign to do as he pleases with no consequences”, nor does it apply to people receiving instructions from him. If he orders someone to commit a crime, they’re still subject to the law. He and his administration can also still be sued, and WILL be. > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > The mere (however fanciful) possibility of an invasion got us _Korematsu_ At the time of Korematsu the US was at war with Japan. What countries are you anticipating Congress will be declaring war against? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2024, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/106 "2024-12-11T01:19:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > ust as they were in 2017, when, as you note, he couldn’t even get Obamacare repealed, and that was under reconciliation rules where it couldn’t be filibustered. This time he has a smaller House margin, and changes to the Citizenship Act aren’t eligible to be passed by reconciliation. Again…he came within one SCOTUS vote of doing it and that was an unlikely vote to go that way. Now he has more of the court and courts. And republicans in congress are less likely than ever to push back against him. > [@Smapti](#): > > Qualified immunity for official acts is not “free reign to do as he pleases with no consequences”, nor does it apply to people receiving instructions from him. If he orders someone to commit a crime, they’re still subject to the law. He and his administration can also still be sued, and WILL be. What is it you think he will be held accountable for this time? He helped perpetrate an attack on the capitol and got away with it. What is it you think is beyond the pale this time around after SCOTUS made the president immune from almost any crime committed while in office? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2024, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/107 "2024-12-11T01:23:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Again…he came within one SCOTUS vote of doing it Come again? > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What is it you think he will be held accountable for this time? He helped perpetrate an attack on the capitol and got away with it. What is it you think is beyond the pale this time around after SCOTUS made the president immune from almost any crime committed while in office? The courts enjoin the government from breaking the law all the time. It has never required throwing the president in jail. L’etat n’est-ce pas Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2024, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/108 "2024-12-11T01:26:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Come again? > **ACA Survives Legal Challenge, Protecting Coverage for Tens of Millions** > > The Supreme Court ruled in June 2021 that the challengers to the Affordable Care Act (ACA) lacked standing, effectively throwing out the lawsuit argued by 18 Republican state attorneys general and the Trump Administration. The ACA remains the law of the land, after the defeat of a case that legal experts across the political spectrum viewed as extremely weak. - [SOURCE](https://www.cbpp.org/research/health/suit-challenging-aca-legally-suspect-but-threatens-loss-of-coverage-for-millions) > [@Smapti](#): > > The courts enjoin the government from breaking the law all the time. It has never required throwing the president in jail. L’etat n’est-ce pas Trump. What happens if Trump ignores the court? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2024, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/109 "2024-12-11T01:47:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > ACA Survives Legal Challenge, Protecting Coverage for Tens of Millions That was a dismissal for lack of standing, so he fell nine votes short, not one. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What happens if Trump ignores the court? > **[The Contempt Power of the Federal Courts | Federal Judicial Center](https://www.fjc.gov/history/work-courts/contempt-power-federal-courts)** > > Information on individual courts includes judge lists, succession charts, legislative history, district organization, meeting places, records and bibliography… ---
**Author:** ![JacobSwan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@JacobSwan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacobSwan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2024, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/110 "2024-12-11T15:19:04Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > He finally relented when I threatened to drive up to Bonn and have it out in person with him and his supervisor. But then you’d have to file an expense claim for mileage, and it all starts again! ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2024, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/111 "2024-12-11T15:28:01Z")
> [@JacobSwan](#): > > But then you’d have to file an expense claim for mileage, and it all starts again! GAH! If I still had a desk, I’d bang my head on it. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2024, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/112 "2024-12-11T20:38:06Z")
The real crunch will come from SS applications. If your children don’t have SSNs, you cannot claim them on your tax forms. Passports are minor. Most people don’t have one and don’t need it. And what Trumper would want to go to a furrin cuntree anyway? But if you need to prove your citizenship and birth in the US is ruled, by XO, insufficient evidence, what are you going to do? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2024, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/113 "2024-12-11T20:54:13Z")
Get kicked out with all the others… Not only would I have to ‘prove’ mine - I’d have to prove my parents, etc - How many generations back do I have to prove my nobility? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2024, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/114 "2024-12-11T21:04:17Z")
That will depend on your politics and your ethnic make-up. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2024, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/115 "2024-12-11T21:36:09Z")
Here is a good article from Politifact- > **[Trump wants to end birthright citizenship. Can he do it?](https://www.politifact.com/article/2024/dec/10/donald-trump-is-reiterating-his-promise-to-overtur/)** > > During his first major interview since winning the 2024 presidential race, Donald Trump reiterated a promise he’s made m ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/116 "2025-01-20T16:17:23Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > However he does it, Trump would be claiming that any statute that enshrines birthright citizenship is in conflict with the meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” under the 14th Amendment and therefore unconstitutional. And he would order his Administration to act in accordance with his, Constitutional, interpretation. And the courts would have to resolve it. And away we go: > **[Trump will announce end of birthright citizenship for children of illegal...](https://nypost.com/2025/01/20/us-news/trump-will-announce-end-of-birthright-citizenship-for-children-of-illegal-immigrants/)** > > WASHINGTON –Incoming President Donald Trump will announce the end of birthright citizenship for children of illegal immigrants in an executive order on his first day of office, incoming White… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/117 "2025-01-20T16:29:09Z")
The YouTuber LegalEagle has posted about this recently. The short version seems to be birthright citizenship does not apply to an invading army (or diplomats but diplomats aren’t important for this). So, Texas and/or Trump will declare illegal immigrants as an invading army and thus any children they have here cannot be considered US citizens under the 14th amendment. An interesting watch (26 minutes): [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/knH3v5aEe_g/maxresdefault.jpg "End of Birthright Citizenship? (ft. Liz Dye)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knH3v5aEe_g) ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/118 "2025-01-20T16:42:34Z")
I do wonder at the practical implementation of this. Trump can tell his Administration to not regard children of undocumented individuals as citizens for their purposes (e.g. eligibility for federal grant programs or federal hiring), but how will they enforce that? Right now, you just need to produce an American birth certificate, which doesn’t include the legal status of the parents in any state I’m familiar with. Are they going to require evidence of parents’ immigration status of all applicants? How easily could you prove that your parents are citizens? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/119 "2025-01-20T16:46:13Z")
Your papers must be in order, citizen! ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/120 "2025-01-20T16:46:15Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > How easily could you prove that your parents are citizens? I have a passport. Is that sufficient proof I am a US citizen? It’s been a while since I updated my passport but I do not remember it being too difficult. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368.md?page=7)