# How can Trump get around the 14th Amendment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [December 9, 2024, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368 "2024-12-09T01:15:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/141 "2025-01-20T17:33:34Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If so, why have a passport? The pasport is a necessary, but not sufficient, requirement. You have to have it to get in, but it doesn’t guarantee getting in. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/142 "2025-01-20T17:41:48Z")
I don’t think he’ll be able to apply this to anyone who is ALREADY a recognized citizen. And probably not even to anyone who isn’t, but has already been born. This because as has been pointed out before, a hurdle here is that the birth certifications in the US are not centralized but are issued by the states and even in some by the counties, with their own respective standards, and virtually all those issued to this day do NOT register citizenship or migratory status of the parents. ANY parents. In the regular course of life in the US, citizenship status is _presumed_ until and unless there is a requirement to show proof, and up to now under the 14th Amendment, the certified evidence of birth within the boundaries of the state or territory had been good enough for those born in the land. ISTM if this were to change in an effective manner, it would entail an enormous unfunded mandate to states and counties to start gathering that information and placing them in certificates from now on and will likely force them to create the birth certificate equivalent of the non-Real-ID license. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/143 "2025-01-20T17:51:20Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But what would they be? I’m don’t have my parents’ birth certificates, and if birth certificates are no longer proof that they were citizens, what good would they be, anyway? > > What is the more stringent ID requirement that would be workable? For a start, they could demand whatever it is that _jus sanguinis_ countries do, such as proof that your parents were citizens at the time of your birth (and maybe also even more remote ancestors, depending on how far back the current administration wants to go). If you don’t have your parents’ birth or naturalization certificates, that’s almost certainly your problem and not the passport office’s. (Can’t you just request copies from the registrar? I had to do this to prove my own citizenship when applying for a passport from a _jus sanguinis_ country.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/144 "2025-01-20T17:54:54Z")
_Wong Kim Ark_ is one of our most settled precedents. Bills to reverse it have been introduced in Congress a half-dozen times, and none has ever made it beyond committee. Trump promised to reverse it executive order in 2018 and never bothered. Even Clarence Thomas, who never met a liberal interpretation of a law that he wasn’t prepared to excoriate in a dissent that had nothing to do with the issues before the Court, has never publicly criticized Wong Kim Ark. I am not sure that birthright citizenship is a good policy, but it would be nearly impossible to get rid of it without a major shift in public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/145 "2025-01-20T18:10:10Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > The pasport is a necessary, but not sufficient, requirement. You have to have it to get in, but it doesn’t guarantee getting in. I’m pretty sure, however, you have the right as a citizen to return to the country. So it must have happened at some point that a person who does not have a passport got out, and then got back in. That is, if a passportless US citizen shows up at a border crossing, there’s got to be a way (likely a painful one) that they can get back in. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/146 "2025-01-20T20:32:59Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > For a start, they could demand whatever it is that _jus sanguinis_ countries do, such as proof that your parents were citizens at the time of your birth If my birth certificate is not proof of my citizenship, why would my parents’ birth certificates be proof that they were citizens? > [@](#): > > If you don’t have your parents’ birth or naturalization certificates, that’s almost certainly your problem and not the passport office’s. But it’s not just about passports, based on what Trump is saying. He’s talking about deporting non-citizens. How does a person prove citizenship to prevent deportation if a birth certificate is not valid proof? > [@](#): > > Can’t you just request copies from the registrar? In this age where identity theft is such an issue, many registries have tightened up their rules so that only the person whose name is on the birth certificate, or an executor, can request the copy. So I can easily get my birth certificate. I may be able to get my Dad’s, since I was co-executor. May be difficult to get my Mom’s, since Dad was her executor. But again, what good is that, if birth certificates are no longer valid proof of citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/147 "2025-01-20T20:35:59Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > The pasport is a necessary, but not sufficient, requirement. You have to have it to get in, but it doesn’t guarantee getting in. In Canada, Canadian citizens have a right under the Charter to re-enter. Absence of a passport can’t defeat a constitutional right. There would have to be alternative ways to get back in, as OldOlds suggests for the US. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/148 "2025-01-20T20:42:27Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > In Canada, Canadian citizens have a right under the Charter to re-enter. This is one of the few broad rights (e.g. not a minority language right) I can think of that is specifically spelled out in the Charter than the US does not have in the Bill of Rights. It’s VERY clear, and is not even subject to the notwithstanding clause; a Canadian can leave or enter the country. It strikes me as being an obviously fundamental right. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/149 "2025-01-20T22:04:10Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > They will simply claim that children of immigrants are not “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” (of the USA) and so are not born citizens. If they’re not subject to the jurisdiction of US law, then they can’t be deported, now can they? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/150 "2025-01-20T22:38:34Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If my birth certificate is not proof of my citizenship, why would my parents’ birth certificates be proof that they were citizens? That would be up to whoever writes (or interprets) the law. I can envisage them deciding that, at least for now, citizenship can be presumed for anyone holding a birth certificate issued at least _n_ years ago, for some conveniently large _n_. There are, in fact, countries that have already done almost exactly this. For example, when Latvia declared its independence from the USSR, it recognized as its citizens only those who had been, or were descended from, those who held Latvian citizenship in 1940. A million or so residents, perhaps the majority of whom had actually been born in Latvia, suddenly found themselves potentially or actually without Latvian citizenship. If you were born in or moved to Latvia after 1940, the onus was on you to prove that your parents (and possibly also grandparents, etc.) were citizens. A lot of people in this situation couldn’t, or wouldn’t, and so either left the country, or else stayed put as politically disadvantaged non-citizen residents while pursuing various legal remedies that to this day have not been fully resolved. > In this age where identity theft is such an issue, many registries have tightened up their rules so that only the person whose name is on the birth certificate, or an executor, can request the copy. If it suddenly becomes a legal requirement for “legitimate” citizens to produce birth certificates for their immediate ancestors, I’m sure the registries will change their rules, almost certainly voluntarily but if necessary by court order. It’s not like this sort of thing is unheard of in other jurisdictions—I was able to order a copy of my mother’s birth certificate without her participation, and yet her country of birth doesn’t seem to have any more of an identity theft problem than the US does. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2025, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/151 "2025-01-20T22:41:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If they’re not subject to the jurisdiction of US law, then they can’t be deported, now can they? By that logic, neither can the soldiers of an invading army. Fortunately, that’s not what “subject to the jurisdiction” actually means. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/152 "2025-01-21T00:40:27Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What is the more stringent ID requirement that would be workable? Skin color. This is about race war, not immigration. No amount of documentation will help if you have the wrong skin color, nobody will bother looking at it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/153 "2025-01-21T01:06:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If they’re not subject to the jurisdiction of US law, then they can’t be deported, now can they? The Supreme Court will say they can. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/154 "2025-01-21T01:08:45Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The Supreme Court will say they can If the Supreme Court is able to say they can be deported, they must be subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, therefore they’re citizens and can’t be deported. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/155 "2025-01-21T01:28:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If the Supreme Court is able to say they can be deported, they must be subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, therefore they’re citizens and can’t be deported. That isn’t even logical based on CURRENT law, which you know, as you know full well that, say, the family of a diplomat can be turfed out of a country even though they’re literally the ones that section of the 14th Amendment was written about. But you’re missing the point anyway; what YOU think isn’t relevant. What the Supreme Court says is relevant. And they will agree with Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/156 "2025-01-21T01:29:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That isn’t even logical based on CURRENT law, which you know, as you know full well that, say, the family of a diplomat can be turfed out of a country even though they’re literally the ones that section of the 14th Amendment was written about. So you’re saying the children of undocumented immigrants have diplomatic immunity? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/157 "2025-01-21T01:30:13Z")
trump just ended birthright citizenship by executive order. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/158 "2025-01-21T01:30:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > trump just ended birthright citizenship by executive order No, he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/159 "2025-01-21T01:31:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So you’re saying illegal immigrants have diplomatic immunity? No, you need to pay closer attention. Diplomats’ children re not subject to US jurisdiction in the sense the 14th amendment means that term. So they don’t get birthright citizenship. The Trumpist lawyers will simply say that this is also true of the children of illegal immigrants. The Supreme Court will agree. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/160 "2025-01-21T01:32:24Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Diplomats’ children re not subject to US jurisdiction in the sense the 14th amendment means that term. So they don’t get birthright citizenship. > > The Trumpist lawyers will simply say that this is also true of the children of illegal immigrants. > > The Supreme Court will agree. So the Supreme Court will grant the citizen children of immigrants diplomatic immunity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368.md?page=9)