# How can Trump get around the 14th Amendment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [December 9, 2024, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368 "2024-12-09T01:15:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/161 "2025-01-21T01:32:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, he didn’t. [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-signs-executive-orders-targeting-illegal-immigration-cartels-birthright-2025-01-21/](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-signs-executive-orders-targeting-illegal-immigration-cartels-birthright-2025-01-21/) Now, will it stick? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/162 "2025-01-21T01:32:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > will it stick? No, it will not, because the president does not have the authority to rewrite the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/163 "2025-01-21T01:33:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So the Supreme Court will grant the citizen children of immigrants diplomatic immunity. No, you are not reading closely enough. Diplomats’ children re not subject to US jurisdiction in the sense the 14th amendment means that term. So they don’t get birthright citizenship. The Trumpist lawyers will simply say that this is also true of the children of illegal immigrants. The Supreme Court will agree. They will not give them diplomatic immunity. Why would they? They just have to agree with Trump. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/164 "2025-01-21T01:33:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, it will not. That’s what i think also, but he just did it. Now i expect the ACLU to file suit very quickly. Does this mean that Donald jr, Ivanka & Eric just lost their citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/165 "2025-01-21T01:34:37Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Diplomats’ children re not subject to US jurisdiction in the sense the 14th amendment means that term. So they don’t get birthright citizenship. > > The Trumpist lawyers will simply say that this is also true of the children of illegal immigrants. > > The Supreme Court will agree. > > They will not give them diplomatic immunity. Why would they? Because diplomatic immunity is the reason those people are not subject to US law. Please explain why you think the Supreme Court will determine that US law does not apply to the children of undocumented immigrants, because at the moment this sounds like the break the Sovereign Citizen movement has been waiting for. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/166 "2025-01-21T01:40:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because diplomatic immunity is the reason those people are not subject to US law. Please explain why you think the Supreme Court will determine that US law does not apply to the children of undocumented immigrants. Easy: they’ll write in the majority opinion that that’s how it is. Oh, and you’re wrong again. “Subject to the jurisdiction thereof” also includes foreign soldiers, not just diplomats. And guess what comparison the Trumpist lawyers will be making? (Originally it also excluded aboriginals.) You’re thinking in terms of what’s fair and what you think. We’re talking about Trump and Trumpist judges. What is fair, legal or right is not relevant. Like election night, you’re interpreting reality based on what you want to happen. That’s not what will happen. The Supreme Court will twist itself into a knot. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/167 "2025-01-21T01:42:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Oh, and you’re wrong again. “Subject to the jurisdiction thereof” also includes foreign soldiers, not just diplomats. And guess what comparison the Trumpist lawyers will be making? If they’re soldiers then they’re subject to the protections of the Geneva Convention relative to Prisoners of War. You need to think about the consequences of these ideas instead of just declaring “they’ll do whatever Trump wants” - which they won’t. Trying to undo Wong Kim Ark would create a lot more problems than it would “solve” and Roberts knows that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/168 "2025-01-21T01:42:44Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Oh, and you’re wrong again. “Subject to the jurisdiction thereof” also includes foreign soldiers, not just diplomats. And guess what comparison the Trumpist lawyers will be making? Yep, MAGAs have already claimed the aliens coming illegally thru the Southern Border are 'an invading army". ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/169 "2025-01-21T01:46:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yep, MAGAs have already claimed the aliens coming illegally thru the Southern Border are 'an invading army". That’ll be argued before the SC - well, mentioned, anyway - and cited in the majority decision that takes citizenship away from the kids of illegal aliens. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/170 "2025-01-21T01:51:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > and cited in the majority decision that takes citizenship away from the kids of illegal aliens. There will be no such decision. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/171 "2025-01-21T01:51:03Z")
Over the next 4 years (or hell, maybe the next 4 days), expect a _lot_ of things to be recast as “basically a foreign invasion”, and expect the definition of “the border” to be expanded to your front yard. Expect CBP and ICE to be operating in places you’ve not seen them before, acting with both police and military powers, maybe rebranded as something like a “special security force” or “protective squadron”. Expect all of this to outrun the courts like they’re standing still. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/172 "2025-01-21T01:52:50Z")
Actual text of the order: [PROTECTING THE MEANING AND VALUE OF AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP – The White House](https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/protecting-the-meaning-and-value-of-american-citizenship/) 1. Applies only to persons born after 30 days from the issuance of the order. 2. Simply pulls out of his fundament, unsourced and unreferenced, the statement: > Among the categories of individuals born in the United States and not subject to the jurisdiction thereof, the privilege of United States citizenship does not automatically extend to persons born in the United States: (1) when that person’s mother was unlawfully present in the United States and the father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth, or (2) when that person’s mother’s presence in the United States at the time of said person’s birth was lawful but temporary (such as, but not limited to, visiting the United States under the auspices of the Visa Waiver Program or visiting on a student, work, or tourist visa) and the father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth. 1. Orders that that “no department or agency of the United States government shall issue documents recognizing United States citizenship, or accept documents issued … purporting to recognize United States citizenship” to persons whose parents fail the above quoted criteria. 2. Leaves to Secretary of State, the Attorney General, the Secretary of Homeland Security, and the Commissioner of Social Security to figure out how the hell this will be enforced. 3. Defines mother and father as the “immediate biological progenitors” Notice from the statement that the limitation also applies to parents legally here but on a temporary visa, and only if either parent has lawful permanent resident status, then the birth citizenship does apply. Children of legal immigrants who have not yet got their GreenCard would have to be naturalized themselves by whatever the process for naturalizing immigrant minors is. So basically he’s claiming that there is an additional category of “not subject to the jurisdiction” _ **for these purposes** _ on top of the preexisting ones of (a) hostile troops deployed into US territory and their civilian auxiliaries and (b) persons with diplomatic status (and who knows if there’s another, I don’t) , namely (c) persons with no permanent immigration or citizenship status. Even if he can find a way to legally justify just SAYING that this is so I believe that there may be an issue with having people with legal, official but temporary status be defined as in the “exempted from jurisdiction” space unless there can be actual _ **legislation** _ to that effect. But IANA immigration L so I cannot expound further. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/173 "2025-01-21T01:55:42Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Orders that that “no department or agency of the United States government shall issue documents recognizing United States citizenship, or accept documents issued … purporting to recognize United States citizenship” to persons whose parents fail the above quoted criteria. This is blatantly unenforceable because it means that nobody whatsoever can establish that they are a US citizen unless they can document their full genealogy and how each of their immigrant ancestors arrived in this country. This alone is going to doom it in court. Otherwise, just wait until Clem at the trailer park gets denied Social Security because he can’t prove that his mother’s mother’s mother’s mother arrived in the US by lawful means. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/174 "2025-01-21T01:57:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Please explain why you think the Supreme Court will determine that US law does not apply to the children of undocumented immigrants, because at the moment this sounds like the break the Sovereign Citizen movement has been waiting for. In all seriousness, please explain how you can look at the last 20 years of the Supreme Court’s behavior, especially the last 8 years, and say with a straight face that you’re confident they’ll rule strictly on the merits in a careful and studied way that prevents the need for any embarrassing flip-flops in the future. I promise you that this is not a bench that worries in the slightest about being hoist on its own petard. Other things may constrain this court, but shame and consistency are not among those things. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/175 "2025-01-21T01:58:44Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > In all seriousness, please explain how you can look at the last 20 years of the Supreme Court’s behavior, especially the last 8 years, and say with a straight face that you’re confident they’ll rule strictly on the merits in a careful and studied way that prevents the need for any embarrassing flip-flops in the future. Because the consequences of such a ruling would create an untenable scenario in which the citizenship of every single person in the country would be in question and tens of millions (if not 100 million or more) of people would be incapable of establishing that they are entitled to be here. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/176 "2025-01-21T02:01:54Z")
Re the thread title question: Isn’t the answer that the 14th amendment is not self-executing due to [Section 5](https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-14/#amendment-14-section-1)? Now, if Trump issues an executive order that’s illegal, I’d think he has to get the law repealed. But with no law, there’s no 14h amendment. Home free. The radical Republican framers of the 14th amendment would think that the Supreme Court should figure out a way to enforce said amendment even in the absence of a law, but I’m thinking SCOTUS would disagree. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/177 "2025-01-21T02:03:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because the consequences of such a ruling would create an untenable scenario in which the citizenship of every single person in the country would be in question and tens of millions (if not 100 million or more) of people would be incapable of establishing that they are entitled to be here. I don’t see how you’re making this leap when the text of the order is pretty clearly phrased in terms of a person’s immigration and citizenship status. This isn’t a matter of genealogy, it’s a matter of public record. The problem with the order is not the determination of status. The problem is that it very blatantly contradicts the 14th Amendment. The problem with fighting the order is that it’s hard to make government agencies do things, but very easy to make them stop doing things (i.e. issuing asylum claims or citizenship documents). They’re definitely going to stop issuing documents to people who are Constitutionally entitled to them. It’s anybody’s guess how long this goes before the courts stop it (if they stop it). ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/178 "2025-01-21T02:04:06Z")
I will say that I am “glad” (from a certain POV) that it ensnares not only undocumented immigrants, but also those lawfully present on temporary visas. Increases the odds that some relatively privileged person in a secure position, not at risk of deportation, will have standing to sue on behalf of their newly born child. If it only applied to undocumented immigrants, they’d have to risk deportation (announce themselves and being present in the US without admission, and so end up on the government’s radar) to bring the suit. I expect it won’t be too long before a case is brought—hopefully in the 9th circuit—on behalf of a newborn (whose parents are) seeking a US passport (for the child). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/179 "2025-01-21T02:06:35Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I don’t see how you’re making this leap when the text of the order is pretty clearly phrased in terms of a person’s immigration and citizenship status. This isn’t a matter of genealogy, it’s a matter of public record. Per the cite upthread; > [@JRDelirious](#): > > the privilege of United States citizenship does not automatically extend to persons born in the United States: (1) when that person’s mother was unlawfully present in the United States and the father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth So, in order to be a birthright citizen, I have to establish that my parents were citizens. But if they acquired their citizenship via birthright, that means I also have to prove that their parents were birthright citizens, and so on, and so on, until I arrive at each of my individual ancestors who had citizenship conferred upon them by law, whatever that looks like at this point. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368/180 "2025-01-21T02:07:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because the consequences of such a ruling would create an untenable scenario in which the citizenship of every single person in the country would be in question and tens of millions (if not 100 million or more) of people would be incapable of establishing that they are entitled to be here. His way around THAT: > (b) Subsection (a) of this section shall apply only to persons who are born within the United States after 30 days from the date of this order That can only be interpreted as that everyone born in the land before 20 Feb 2025 remains presumed a citizen by birth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-trump-get-around-the-14th-amendment/1011368.md?page=10)