# How can we better prevent school shootings?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051 "2012-12-14T18:46:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 10
### Author:  [@Mnemnosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mnemnosyne)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/181 "2012-12-15T13:35:17Z")
> [@d1a1s1](#):
>
> We’re talking about mentally ill children here. It amazes me that we are even considering NOT holding parents at fault. You’re telling me that someone with real mental disabilities is fully responsible for their actions? In just about every recent case of an individual shooting up a theatre, school, mall…etc there were in fact signs of mental illness. I agree that the individual that committed the crime is in fact the culprit but the blame rests on the parents that gave a mentally unstable individual access to weapons.
Giving them access to weapons is quite a separate matter than holding them responsible for meeting some nebulous standard of what they supposedly could have done to prevent the incident. Unless we’re establishing some sort of ‘you must take your kid to a psychologist regularly’ rule (in which case I imagine there would be tremendous outrage) demanding that the parents or anyone else meet some ill-defined determination, probably made with the benefit of hindsight, of what they ‘could’ have done, is entirely unfair and presents a standard that is impossible to meet. It would also result in people reporting all sorts of slightly unusual behavior to the authorities, to cover themselves and make sure they aren’t held responsible for failing to respond to ‘signs’ of mental illness.
Holding them responsible for illegally giving the culprit access to weapons, on the other hand, is a good thing, and a key part of the rules I’m proposing; anyone allowing an unlicensed individual access to their firearms should face strict penalties. It would not, as noted above by others, stop all such shootings, but it may make it at least somewhat less likely that another individual would choose to illegally supply them with weapons.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/182 "2012-12-15T13:57:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Have you noticed how we go through this gun-control/gun-rights debate after every mass shooting? And it’s pretty much the same arguments every time.
Because there are only two possible solutions which are diametrically opposite, and we as a country can’t seem to agree on which one. Either dump the 2nd Amendment in the rubbish bin and more or less ban the civilian ownership of firearms (which would work a little but not as well as people hope); or expand gun ownership, and especially carry, to the level that proponents claim will deter and neutralize the unlawful use of guns. Right now we’re close to the worst of both worlds: among lawful people only police and a tiny percentage of gun advocates routinely carry, while criminals and psychopaths have little trouble obtaining a gun.
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### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/183 "2012-12-15T13:59:55Z")
I found [this comment](http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/elementary-school-shooting-leaves-27-dead/#comment-251585) on Inspector Gadget’s blog very interesting.
> [@](#):
>
> Whilst the US has by far and away the highest per capital gun ownership in the world there are many other countries that have relatively high rates of gun ownership that do not have the US issue of gun-related violence (including suicide by gun).
>
> What those other countries DO tend to have is a smaller gap between rich and poor, a stronger social safety net, better public (and mental) health, less racial tension, no gang culture etc.
>
> …
>
> If you want to stop violence like this focus less on banning guns and instead walk out your front door now and knock on your neighbor’s door and say “how are you doing, fancy a cuppa?”
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/184 "2012-12-15T14:05:49Z")
> [@d1a1s1](#):
>
> We’re talking about mentally ill children here. It amazes me that we are even considering NOT holding parents at fault. You’re telling me that someone with real mental disabilities is fully responsible for their actions? In just about every recent case of an individual shooting up a theatre, school, mall…etc there were in fact signs of mental illness. I agree that the individual that committed the crime is in fact the culprit but the blame rests on the parents that gave a mentally unstable individual access to weapons.
I’m mentally ill. I have been since I was a child. In my case, its genetic. My grandmother killed herself. My aunt has spent time in psych wards and gets SSDI for her mental health issues. My great grandmother was locked up with electroshock, cold baths, the whole thing.
I have one sister who spent 48 hours in lockdown and one who went through rehap three times to get sober.
You want to hold my parents responsible for raising three women with depression? My mother doesn’t have mental health issues, she didn’t know or understand that she was passing her bad genes to her children.
Being female, we are far more likely to turn our depression towards ourselves than towards others.
My dad has/had guns.
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### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/185 "2012-12-15T15:33:41Z")
> [@d1a1s1](#):
>
> We’re talking about mentally ill children here. It amazes me that we are even considering NOT holding parents at fault. You’re telling me that someone with real mental disabilities is fully responsible for their actions? In just about every recent case of an individual shooting up a theatre, school, mall…etc there were in fact signs of mental illness. I agree that the individual that committed the crime is in fact the culprit but the blame rests on the parents that gave a mentally unstable individual access to weapons.
I’ve known people with mentally ill children. Once those children grow up to become adults, it is effectively impossible for the parents to control them. How does making the parents responsible for their children’s actions work?
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/186 "2012-12-15T15:41:38Z")
[QUOTE=d1a1s1]
OK. After a lengthy discussion on Facebook with an old friend of mine we came up with an idea that could help in lot of these situations. Hold parents criminally negligent if they don’t do everything they can to discourage and prevent violent behavior. If it turns out that this kid showed signs of mental instability and can be proven in a court of law, then the parent(s) are held responsible.
[/QUOTE]
How far do you want to take this? It sounds like the parents of the shooter should be held criminally negligent for getting divorced.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/187 "2012-12-15T15:58:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#):
>
> I’ve known people with mentally ill children. Once those children grow up to become adults, it is effectively impossible for the parents to control them. How does making the parents responsible for their children’s actions work?
While I think his (?) proposal in general is ridiculously overbroad, there’s a nugget of a useful idea in there: why _shouldn’t_ someone be liable for shootings done with their guns (regardless of whether the shooter is mentally ill)?
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/188 "2012-12-15T16:16:40Z")
Ban personal ownership, possession, use and storage of automatic guns, semi-automatic guns, handguns other than at sanctioned competitons, and clips of more than half a dozen bullets. Require trigger locks at all times other than when in use, and require storage at all time in gun safes except when in use or when in transit. Ban ownerhship and use by anyone with a criminal record for violence or a serious psychiatric disorder.
Of course the USA cannot do this, for it does not have the cojones and would rather hide behind its guns.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/189 "2012-12-15T16:20:59Z")
As I noted in this [other thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15799868&postcount=27), we have a circumstance in which homicide rates, especially by teens, have been decreasing while suicide rates by teens have been increasing and mass murders committed by teens and young adults are either stable or increasing.
I am all for keeping guns securely stored and for owners being liable for what happens if they are not, but the key ingredient here is not guns. Guns are not the cause of these behaviors. Whatever is driving the increase in suicide is minimally preventing mass murders from decreasing like other homicides are (if not increasing). Figure that out and prevent/treat the mental illness that seems to drive both suicide and mass murder, determine what is going on that does this, be it social isolation, poor mental health services, bullying, or whatever it turns out to be, and you can prevent these episodes. And do much more good overall than you would with guards and lock downs.
Neither shouting about gun control or defensive gun use does anything more than cloud discussions about the real root causes … and serve some of our other, extant, political perspectives.
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/190 "2012-12-15T16:22:24Z")
> **[Australia's 1996 gun law reforms: faster falls in firearm deaths, firearm...](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2704353/)**
>
> After a 1996 firearm massacre in Tasmania in which 35 people died, Australian governments united to remove semi‐automatic and pump‐action shotguns and rifles from civilian possession, as a key component of gun law reforms. To determine whether ...
> [@](#):
>
> After a 1996 firearm massacre in Tasmania in which 35 people died, Australian governments united to remove semi‐automatic and pump‐action shotguns and rifles from civilian possession, as a key component of gun law reforms.
>
> . . . .
>
> In the 18 years before the gun law reforms, there were 13 mass shootings in Australia, and none in the 10.5 years afterwards. Declines in firearm‐related deaths before the law reforms accelerated after the reforms for total firearm deaths (p=0.04), firearm suicides (p=0.007) and firearm homicides (p=0.15), but not for the smallest category of unintentional firearm deaths, which increased. No evidence of substitution effect for suicides or homicides was observed. The rates per 100000 of total firearm deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides all at least doubled their existing rates of decline after the revised gun laws.
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### Author:  [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/191 "2012-12-15T17:24:29Z")
> [@Muffin](#):
>
> [Australia's 1996 gun law reforms: faster falls in firearm deaths, firearm suicides, and a decade without mass shootings - PMC](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2704353/)
Thank you for posting this. Nice to see facts, for a change. SDMB at its best.
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### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/192 "2012-12-15T18:19:22Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> Neither shouting about gun control or defensive gun use does anything more than cloud discussions about the real root causes … and serve some of our other, extant, political perspectives.
I don’t know why we keep looking at this as a dichotomy.
We are semi-intelligent beings. Surely we can have a reasoned debate about gun control AND also talk about psychosocial interventions. I think it’s myopic to do otherwise because it’s obvious we are talking about the interaction of violence-prone individuals and easily accessible technology of violence.
Regulating guns isn’t going to stop people from bugging out. But is also impossible to keep people from bugging out, no matter how much hand-wringing we do over them.\* Regardless of the solution, there will be trade-offs on civil liberties. Personally, I’d rather see the trade-offs fall more on individuals longing to own devices that are designed to kill and maim more than on individuals possessing deviant personalities. There is no such thing as a “need” for a semi-automatic weapon. But people _need_ their own personalities. One person’s “OMG! SCARY!” is another person’s quirky eccentric on the road to discovering the cure for cancer.
Find me a gun that can discover the cure for cancer, and maybe I will be a more enthusiastic defender of the 2nd Amendment.
\*We actually don’t know what kind of help this kid received. He came from a financially well-off family and had educated, presumably devoted parents. Why are we assuming that society failed him somehow? He may have been neglected or he may have had all the help that money can buy and it just wasn’t enough.
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/193 "2012-12-15T18:22:24Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#):
>
> Thank you for posting this. Nice to see facts, for a change. SDMB at its best.
Thanks. The link was first posted by Salome on the Giraffe Boards. [The Giraffe Boards - View Single Post - Elementary school massacre in Connecticut](http://www.giraffeboards.com/showpost.php?p=904399&postcount=100)
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### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/194 "2012-12-15T18:37:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> While I think his (?) proposal in general is ridiculously overbroad, there’s a nugget of a useful idea in there: why _shouldn’t_ someone be liable for shootings done with their guns (regardless of whether the shooter is mentally ill)?
Are you talking strict liability or a negligence theory by leaving somewhere a kid might have access to it, or lending it to someone irresponsible (similar to negligent entrustment of a car).
I might be able to get behind those, but most of the proposals I’ve seen would actually hold a gun owner responsible when someone breaks into his home, steals his weapons, and then uses them for crime. That I cannot get behind, nor strict liability..
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### Author:  [@KermitTheFrig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KermitTheFrig)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/195 "2012-12-15T18:57:10Z")
From what I read last night, there have been very, very, VERY few mass shootings in U.S. schools during the last thirty years. In fact, pretty few mass shootings at any venue in the U.S.
In the case of this December 2012 shooting in CT, a known person in the community got into a school where he had probably been many times before. There’s little chance of ever stopping something like that from happening.
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### Author:  [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/196 "2012-12-15T18:59:28Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#):
>
> I’m mentally ill. I have been since I was a child. In my case, its genetic. My grandmother killed herself. My aunt has spent time in psych wards and gets SSDI for her mental health issues. My great grandmother was locked up with electroshock, cold baths, the whole thing.
>
> I have one sister who spent 48 hours in lockdown and one who went through rehap three times to get sober.
>
> You want to hold my parents responsible for raising three women with depression? My mother doesn’t have mental health issues, she didn’t know or understand that she was passing her bad genes to her children.
>
> Being female, we are far more likely to turn our depression towards ourselves than towards others.
>
> My dad has/had guns.
Well, if you were living in the house, over 18, and used your dad’s guns to mow down some people, I certainly would want your father to be liable for his irresponsible storage and tracking of his guns. In the same way I’m still incredulous that no one has publicly shamed the Colombine parents for not noticing their kids were putting together an arsenal and making bombs. In the same way I hold the CT shooter’s mom responsible for giving her mentally unstable son access to her weapons.
Note - it’s because they “raised them wrong” or something like that, but because their total lack of concern or denial or poor judgment permitted the death of a bunch of people. We hold drunk drivers responsible for poor judgment when they kill people. We even hold bars responsible for overserving people who then go drive drunk and kill people. If people can’t be trusted around guns (and with a few exceptions, like a brain tumor or a sudden psychotic break, I find it hard to believe these parents don’t see something off), then need to have no access to guns.
While I’m lucky enough not to have severe mental illness in my family, I do have alcoholism and autism/behavior disorders all throughout on both sides. The drinkers have violent streaks, and remember hearing about the time my uncle shot up my dad’s garage with a shotgun. The behavior disorder crowd runs the gamut, and while most of them are young and gentle, there is one 10 year old cousin who is creepy and completely devoid of any human empathy. If my aunt and uncle were the type to have guns in their home, I would suggest that they remove them immediately, and I do not let my son play with him alone because of the weird bullying that goes on. And if he shot up a school, I would not be surprised, and I would blame my aunt and uncle for having guns that he had access too.
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### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/197 "2012-12-15T19:04:57Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#):
>
> Well, if you were living in the house, over 18, and used your dad’s guns to mow down some people, I certainly would want your father to be liable for his irresponsible storage and tracking of his guns. In the same way I’m still incredulous that no one has publicly shamed the Colombine parents for not noticing their kids were putting together an arsenal and making bombs. In the same way I hold the CT shooter’s mom responsible for giving her mentally unstable son access to her weapons.
The CT mom is dead. Her son overpowered her, got her guns and shot her in the face. How do you hold anyone responsible for someone physically overpowering you and taking your stuff? If someone beats me to a pulp and steals my car to commit a crime, should I be liable?
I agree about the Columbine parents. How in the hell do you not notice that your garage has been turned into a pipe bomb making facility?
I don’t agree with the over 18. I don’t agree with the under 18. When I was 14, I had a gun that was “my” gun. Just like any other object, I think that unless the parent had reason to believe that the person was going to commit a terrible act with the gun then it’s not his/her fault.
For example, in my situation, had my parents gotten a report from school that I was deeply disturbed and potentially violent, then it would have been their responsibility to take away “my” gun. Absent any reason to believe otherwise, why should a parent assume that his kid is the 1 of 100 million who would do something terrible like this?
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### Author:  [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/198 "2012-12-15T19:19:29Z")
> [@jtgain](#):
>
> The CT mom is dead. Her son overpowered her, got her guns and shot her in the face. How do you hold anyone responsible for someone physically overpowering you and taking your stuff? If someone beats me to a pulp and steals my car to commit a crime, should I be liable?
>
> I agree about the Columbine parents. How in the hell do you not notice that your garage has been turned into a pipe bomb making facility?
>
> I don’t agree with the over 18. I don’t agree with the under 18. When I was 14, I had a gun that was “my” gun. Just like any other object, I think that unless the parent had reason to believe that the person was going to commit a terrible act with the gun then it’s not his/her fault.
>
> For example, in my situation, had my parents gotten a report from school that I was deeply disturbed and potentially violent, then it would have been their responsibility to take away “my” gun. Absent any reason to believe otherwise, why should a parent assume that his kid is the 1 of 100 million who would do something terrible like this?
But, why were the guns therein the first place? You say your parents would have taken away your gun if you were under 18 and got a bad mark in being sane. If you were over 18 and living at home, do you think they would have kept guns on the premises? Do you think they should have?
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/199 "2012-12-15T19:24:03Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#):
>
> If you’re thinking of moving to a country where the police, the citizens and the country itself are all unarmed, chances are that the country in question owes its existence to the protection of another country that is.
The list of countries that are totally unarmed is rather a short list.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 15, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/200 "2012-12-15T19:26:16Z")
> [@jtgain](#):
>
> Her son overpowered her
We don’t know that, or at least it hasn’t been said in any reports I’ve read. We know he got her guns and killed her. Unless I’ve missed something, it’s not clear that he overpowered her and took the guns as opposed, say, forcing open a safe or taking them from someplace where they were poorly secured and then killing her. I don’t have a problem in theory with prosecuting people who do a bad job securing dangerous weapons, although the fact that someone else got a hold of them is not proof by itself that they weren’t properly secured.
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