# How can we better prevent school shootings?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051 "2012-12-14T18:46:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 15
### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/281 "2012-12-16T16:28:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> And why not? đ
>
> I doubt it. You can find a few measures like these (metal detectors, guards) in schools that have severe violence problems, but doing them in every school in the country from K-12 is the definition of overkill. Like I said, itâd be extremely expensive and disruptive and (since schools already do drills and have procedures for events like these) Iâm not sure it would make anybody any safer. I donât see why those measures would have changed anything about the course of the Newtown shooting, for example. This is a textbook example of the kind of response that needs to be avoided after a shocking but incredibly rare event: the one that costs a lot of money and whose primary appeal is making you feel like youâve done something. The obvious comparison here would be airport security measures. What makes more sense here: doing what we can to identify people who might be prone to violence and trying to keep guns out of their hands, or buying bulletproof glass and centralized lockdown systems for every school in the country?
Of the two options you have there -
a) doing what we can to identify people who might be prone to violence and trying to keep guns out of their hands
b)buying bulletproof glass and centralized lockdown systems for every school in the country
Which one can you do with any practical assurance?
Simply put - if a situation _does_ occur - being able to minimize the damage with better physical security is a (relatively) cheap and easy solution. Using electronic locks from a centralized location makes response time immediate and not dependent on scared teachers having to find keys or respond to the code words over the loud speaker.
THis school was already in âlockdownâ when the incident started - exterior doors were locked - this shows that even in this town where this kind of violence is unheard of that people are already thinking in this manner.
I am only proposing to increase the budget for those physical security efforts and increasing them to the ânext logicalâ level.
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### Author:  [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/282 "2012-12-16T16:34:59Z")
**simster** , how do propose securing schools that are multi-building? Every school Iâve attended have multiple entry points to the campus.
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### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/283 "2012-12-16T16:40:52Z")
> [@runner pat](#):
>
> **simster** , how do propose securing schools that are multi-building? Every school Iâve attended have multiple entry points to the campus.
no difference really - elements of the plan will have to be customized for each campus as appropriate.
(I know thats a non-answer - the proposal is increased physical security - not a plan for each individual campus)
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### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/284 "2012-12-16T16:50:15Z")
> [@runner pat](#):
>
> **simster** , how do propose securing schools that are multi-building? Every school Iâve attended have multiple entry points to the campus.
I realize now that what you may be asking about is when students travel between these buildings in between classes - or even for outdoor events/classes/sports.
Those will have to be evaluated as well -
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### Author:  [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/285 "2012-12-16T16:59:32Z")
> [@simster](#):
>
> I realize now that what you may be asking about is when students travel between these buildings in between classes - or even for outdoor events/classes/sports.
>
> Those will have to be evaluated as well -
I was thinking of basic access from the street. Also, staff and student parking lots.
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### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/286 "2012-12-16T17:09:43Z")
> [@runner pat](#):
>
> I was thinking of basic access from the street. Also, staff and student parking lots.
Similar to School buses - those will be difficult to protect - but also have not (yet) been the focus of an attack.
One option here is to increase armed security presence on the exterior - gated and checkpoints for vehicular entrace/exit. And then we truly do start heading to the âprison likeâ atmosphere that Marley was implying.
Improvements to the physical security of the building(s) will help minimize things like this - but nothing can truly protect students when they are âoutsideâ - so, how far do we take it?
And none of these will stop a truly determined attack -
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/287 "2012-12-16T17:14:36Z")
> [@simster](#):
>
> Which one can you do with any practical assurance?
What does bulletproof glass assure? It stops bullets better than regular glass does, of course, but itâs not actually bullet_proof_. You can still shoot through it if youâre motivated to do so, and I think bullet resistant glass is usually designed to resist small arms fire. This guy used a rifle. For that matter I donât know how much could be accomplished by reinforcing the glass in the windows and front doors in any case. I think this guy did shoot his way into the school, but Iâm not sure it would have mattered if the glass had stopped those bullets. A centralized lockdown system sounds good until you consider that bit you had to add about special rooms for the students who get locked out of their classrooms: the last thing you want in that situation is students running around in the hallways trying to get someone to open a door or find a safe room that might be on another floor or across the building. If a person with a gun is roaming the school, you want to clear the hallways and make sure every student is accounted for as quickly as possible. Making them run around the halls makes it more likely theyâll be shot by the killer or by police and security.
I donât know how many schools you think should have security guards, but there are close to 100,000 public schools in America. Hiring guards for even a decent chunk of them would cost billions of dollars a year, all of that for something that happens a couple of times a year and which might contribute nothing to anyoneâs safety.
> [@](#):
>
> Using electronic locks from a centralized location makes response time immediate and not dependent on scared teachers having to find keys or respond to the code words over the loud speaker.
Has there been a single school shooting where the situation became worse because a teacher couldnât figure out how to lock the door or forgot all the code words? (There would need to be announcements anyway; you canât just suddenly lock all the doors with no explanation.)
> [@](#):
>
> I am only proposing to increase the budget for those physical security efforts and increasing them to the ânext logicalâ level.
I donât see the logic. I do see that this would probably cost tens of billions of dollars and it might feel safer, but I am not sure it would do anything.
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### Author:  [@tomcar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomcar)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/288 "2012-12-16T17:15:21Z")
> [@figure9](#):
>
> If we want to prevent murder sprees we have to understand what causes them. This would take unbiased scientific study and may come to conclusions we donât like. My uneducated guess would be that these people feel they are not a part of our society but rather a victim of it and they want to make us feel their pain. When my dadâs workplace got shot up he said, âI donât understand it. The people he shot were the nicest people there.â I understood it though. If you look at it from the shooters perspective it becomes obvious. If you want to make people suffer you donât shoot the assholes, you shoot the nice guys because then everyone will feel more pain and anger. These children were killed to make the entire community suffer. The shooter did not see them as individuals, he saw them as an opportunity for payback. My opinion is that if we want to stop these types of mass murder incidents we have to take a good hard look at what allows us to dehumanize each other. We will also have to do a better job of helping those who feel alienated by society.
Excellent post.
The key though is: What makes people flip that switch and go into attack mode? Why do some outsiders do it, and others donât?
Maybe if we seek to include and help those ostracized by society, the problem might be solved⌠but that sounds like wishful thinking. It CERTAINLY needs done though.
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### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/289 "2012-12-16T17:21:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> I donât see the logic. I do see that this would probably cost tens of billions of dollars and it might feel safer, but I am not sure it would do anything.
âFeeling Saferâ is a good deal of importance in and of itself - as you hae stated, (and I agree) the rarity of these things is such that we would quite likely be spending âbillionsâ for little gain - EXCEPT that people would feel safer leaving thier kids in school.
There is no âgoodâ answer here -
You cannot âpredictâ nor âpreventâ these - you can only prepare for how to deal with them if and when they occur - and the only thing you can do at that point is hope that your physical security is sufficient to handle the situation - and there are improvements that can be made here - if people are willing to fund it.
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### Author:  [@tomcar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomcar)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/290 "2012-12-16T17:22:03Z")
Everybody needs to remember that this was all started because a teacher WAS armed to the teeth. She was a gun collector and enthusiast. If this teacher wasnât armed, the days events wouldnât have happened⌠or at least the way it did.
More guns is not a solution.
I am all for more police cover/ patrol of schools though. I am for police being armed and more police funding in general. There arenât enough cops. Period.
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### Author:  [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/291 "2012-12-16T17:40:26Z")
> [@artemis](#):
>
> The problem is that ANY gun suitable for hunting, target shooting, or home defense is capable of shooting hundreds of bullets in just a few minutes. These killers arenât using special, extra-deadly guns, but ordinary firearms identical to what hunters, target shooters, and defenders (including the police) use. Theyâre not using machine guns.
So all guns are semi-automatics with large, detachable magazines? I think there are probably lots of perfectly functional firearms that do not have these features and severely limit the number of shots that can be fired in a short amount of time. Thatâs what I am talking about.
Further, I imagine it would not be too complicated to add features to the changing or refilling of a magazine that could slow down the number of shots that can be fired.
**tomcar** , the killerâs mother was not a teacher at the school. That was an incorrect rumor.
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### Author:  [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/292 "2012-12-16T17:45:32Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#):
>
> Further, I imagine it would not be too complicated to add features to the changing or refilling of a magazine that could slow down the number of shots that can be fired.
Even if that were true, it would do nothing for the millions of unmodified guns and magazines that already exist except drive the prices up in the resale market.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/293 "2012-12-16T17:59:32Z")
> [@simster](#):
>
> âFeeling Saferâ is a good deal of importance in and of itself - as you hae stated, (and I agree) the rarity of these things is such that we would quite likely be spending âbillionsâ for little gain - EXCEPT that people would feel safer leaving thier kids in school.
So the answer is even more security theater: take our wonderful and effective airport procedures and transport them to schools. I agree that there is some value in making people feel safer (although most people feel their children are safe at school anyway), but itâs not tens of billions of dollars in value, and the feeling of safety is not so great that it makes visible and expensive measures preferable to more effective ones. Thatâs how you pay a lot of money for security that doesnât make you safer. Schools already do drills for crises like this, and so far thereâs no reason to believe that centralized lockdowns and bulletproof glass and security guards would make anyone any safer than just having the teacher lock the door - and the idea of making students run around looking for safe rooms would be counterproductive in a situation like this. It just sounds like itâs the most we can do, so letâs do it regardless of whether or not itâs effective.
> [@](#):
>
> You cannot âpredictâ nor âpreventâ these
Probably not. Although getting more people into psychiatric treatment would do a hell of a lot more than spending billions of dollars on bulletproof glass and electronics at schools.
there are improvements that can be made here - if people are willing to fund it.
[/QUOTE]
They shouldnât be (and I donât think they will). Schools are already underfunded and youâre talking about stuff that adds little or no value and would be a noticeable chunk of the federal education budget.
> [@tomcar](#):
>
> Everybody needs to remember that this was all started because a teacher WAS armed to the teeth.
She wasnât a teacher.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/294 "2012-12-16T18:09:33Z")
> [@tomcar](#):
>
> Everybody needs to remember that this was all started because a teacher WAS armed to the teeth. She was a gun collector and enthusiast. If this teacher wasnât armed, the days events wouldnât have happened⌠or at least the way it did.
>
> More guns is not a solution.
Aside from the fact that she wasnât a teacher (already addressed), thereâs the fact that if she were, she would certainly have been fired for cause and possibly criminally prosecuted for bringing any of her guns to school. So more guns _carried by lawful people_ IS a solution.
> [@](#):
>
> There arenât enough cops. Period.
And never can be; which- duh!- is why gun advocates believe more lawful people should be armed.
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### Author:  [@tomcar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomcar)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/295 "2012-12-16T18:31:33Z")
> [@Lumpy](#):
>
> Aside from the fact that she wasnât a teacher (already addressed), thereâs the fact that if she were, she would certainly have been fired for cause and possibly criminally prosecuted for bringing any of her guns to school. So more guns _carried by lawful people_ IS a solution.
>
> And never can be; which- duh!- is why gun advocates believe more lawful people should be armed.
You are aware that your solution would have caused a gunfight at an elementary school right? Sure some would have died but a teacher with a gun would have prevailed.
Teachers are engaged in teaching and many other duties during the day, not standing as guards in the front.
If Lanza didnât have access to guns from his mom (her being a teacher is not important, she is an associate at Morgan Stanley it seems.) he wouldnât have gone and shot those kids.
This is a no brainer.
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### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/296 "2012-12-16T18:34:59Z")
> [@tomcar](#):
>
> You are aware that your solution would have caused a gunfight at an elementary school right? Sure some would have died but a teacher with a gun would have prevailed.
But would fewer have died? And even if many died, would it not put off future attempts? I havenât heard of any school shootings in Israel recently.
> [@](#):
>
> Teachers are engaged in teaching and many other duties during the day, not standing as guards in the front.
Is it not your duty as a citizen to help other citizens if you can?
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/297 "2012-12-16T18:43:02Z")
> [@tomcar](#):
>
> You are aware that your solution would have caused a gunfight at an elementary school right? Sure some would have died but a teacher with a gun would have prevailed.
>
> Teachers are engaged in teaching and many other duties during the day, not standing as guards in the front.
>
> If Lanza didnât have access to guns from his mom (her being a teacher is not important, she is an associate at Morgan Stanley it seems.) he wouldnât have gone and shot those kids.
>
> This is a no brainer.
[ol]
[li]A gunfight couldnât have been worse than what happened, and probably better.[/li][li]No one is saying, except maybe as a straw man, that ALL teachers would be required by their position to be armed. Theyâre saying that any teacher who volunteers to should be able to be certified in armed defense and carry their firearm at school.[/li][li]If Lanza simply left her guns at home unlocked it was criminally negligent of her. Ideally there should be some way to require people to responsibly store their weapons. But while guns made this massacre possible, they didnât cause it. A total ban on all firearms would somewhat reduce, but far from eliminate, violence and murder in America; and itâs legitimate to ask âand at what cost?â.[/li][/ol]
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### Author:  [@tomcar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomcar)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/298 "2012-12-16T18:47:33Z")
> [@Quartz](#):
>
> But would fewer have died? And even if many died, would it not put off future attempts? I havenât heard of any school shootings in Israel recently.
>
> Is it not your duty as a citizen to help other citizens if you can?
Of course people should help. That was a weird thing to say.
Anyways, most rational people, people who arenât irrationally pro-guns, see the problem with a shoot out in a school. Its axiomatic really. Several people on here think that a shoot out in a school is a necessary evil so they can keep their guns⌠they are willing to let these thinks happen so that they can keep guns.
All the arguments change the subject (Heart Disease kills people! So does Alcohol!) If the basis of your argument is a logical fallacy, and includes shoot outs in schools⌠you might be part of the problem. Just sayinâ
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### Author:  [@tomcar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomcar)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/299 "2012-12-16T18:52:41Z")
Your ability to have a gun, Lumpy is the cost I am willing to give up. My right to have a gun is what I am willing to give up.
I have nothing to fear. My family never had a gun growing up, and as an adult I have never had a gun. I have lived in very bad areas. I have never had this irrational fear most gun owners have.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/300 "2012-12-16T18:58:47Z")
> [@tomcar](#):
>
> Your ability to have a gun, Lumpy is the cost I am willing to give up.
Fuck you.
> [@](#):
>
> I have nothing to fear. My family never had a gun growing up, and as an adult I have never had a gun. I have lived in very bad areas. I have never had this irrational fear most gun owners have.
Iâm not in fear; itâs the hoplophobes who have a neurotic paranoid fear of guns.
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