# How can we better prevent school shootings?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051 "2012-12-14T18:46:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 16
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/301 "2012-12-16T19:01:19Z")
Well, apparently, [Nancy Lanza taught her son to shoot.](http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/121216/nancy-lanza-gun-enthusiast-taught-her-son-how-sh) She was a gun enthusiast, very proud of her collection/arsenal. Of which Adam finally made some practical use.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/302 "2012-12-16T19:13:00Z")
> [@rhubarbarin](#):
>
> a number of countries that I would like to move to. I should start working on that seriously.
Agreed.
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### Author:  [@tomcar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomcar)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/303 "2012-12-16T19:17:23Z")
> [@Lumpy](#):
>
> Fuck you.
>
> I’m not in fear; it’s the hoplophobes who have a neurotic paranoid fear of guns.
Ouch.
You miss read my post. I have lived in horrible areas and am not scared of guns at all. Repeat: I am not scared of anything.
Gun owners are scared of the government, thieves, commies, etc.
Don’t be offended. And I apologize if I pissed you off.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/304 "2012-12-16T19:21:34Z")
> [@Muffin](#):
>
> Ban personal ownership, possession, use and storage of automatic guns, semi-automatic guns, handguns other than at sanctioned competitons, and clips of more than half a dozen bullets. Require trigger locks at all times other than when in use, and require storage at all time in gun safes except when in use or when in transit. Ban ownerhship and use by anyone with a criminal record for violence or a serious psychiatric disorder.
federal laws, or CT and NJ state laws, have already done a lot of these.
> [@Muffin](#):
>
> Of course the USA cannot do this, for it does not have the cojones and would rather hide behind its guns.
You have strange ideas about what “having cojones” means.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/305 "2012-12-16T19:30:56Z")
> [@Muffin](#):
>
> [Australia's 1996 gun law reforms: faster falls in firearm deaths, firearm suicides, and a decade without mass shootings - PMC](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2704353/)
I think the study missed a mass shooting … [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash\_University\_shooting#Events\_of\_21\_October](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting#Events_of_21_October)
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/306 "2012-12-16T19:55:47Z")
> [@RedFury](#):
>
> Buy a gun as you buy a burger – U.S. Constitution, Amendment #2. Works brilliantly as we can all see.
>
> One more stat where the US is #1 – mass gun killings.
>
> What’s to change?
I suspect, rather strongly, that somewhere like Iraq, Afghanistan, or Syria is currently #1 in “mass gun killings”
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/307 "2012-12-16T20:07:59Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#):
>
> Given the medical system will fail in living up to the task of preventing mass murders perpetrated by mentally ill people, then the only possible solution is to keep weapons out of their hands. Yet anything can be a weapon. So the next best solution is to limit the availability of the most lethal weapons. Perhaps it’s best to start with weapons that can shoot enough bullets in just a few minutes to kill 28 people, or 33 people, or wound and kill 71 people. After all, does anyone need to be able to fire 100s of bullets in a few minutes when hunting, target shooting, or even for home defense?
The rub here is that many mass killings are committed using very run-of-the-mill firearms, not super-deadly, extra-special death machines. The Virginia Tech shooter used a Walther P22 and made something like 15 or 16 mag changes.
If you were to list guns from the deadliest to the least dangerous, a .22 pistol with 10-round magazines would be way down at the bottom of the list. You’d have to ban almost all the guns in America before you thought to ban Walther P22s.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/308 "2012-12-16T20:10:49Z")
> [@tomcar](#):
>
> Several people on here think that a shoot out in a school is a necessary evil so they can keep their guns… they are willing to let these thinks happen so that they can keep guns.
Argue the issue without making personal comments like this about other posters.
> [@Lumpy](#):
>
> Fuck you.
>
> I’m not in fear; it’s the hoplophobes who have a neurotic paranoid fear of guns.
And personal insults aren’t allowed here. Warning issued.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/309 "2012-12-16T20:15:37Z")
> [@simster](#):
>
> the proposal is increased physical security
That’d be easily circumvented. Just have someone pull a fire alarm or call in a bomb threat and the whole school will evacuate the super-secure building and be milling around in some pre-designated location in a big herd: easy pickings.
In fact, it’s already been done: [cite](http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/a-school-shooting-in-jonesboro-arkansas-kills-five)
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### Author:  [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/310 "2012-12-16T20:17:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Well, apparently, [Nancy Lanza taught her son to shoot.](http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/121216/nancy-lanza-gun-enthusiast-taught-her-son-how-sh) She was a gun enthusiast, very proud of her collection/arsenal. Of which Adam finally made some practical use.
At what point we can agree that she also had mental issues?
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/311 "2012-12-16T20:25:32Z")
> [@newcomer](#):
>
> At what point we can agree that she also had mental issues?
Are you suggesting she was mentally ill for owning guns, or taking her sons shooting?
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### Author:  [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/312 "2012-12-16T20:34:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> Are you suggesting she was mentally ill for owning guns, or taking her sons shooting?
I think it’s a question of various people making their own conclusions based on their set of beliefs, moral values, upbringing, experiences and what-not.
So, from all that, in my corner, I find it mildly mentally retarded for a parent to teach an offspring how to shoot a deadly weapon. Call me crazy but what happened to “taking a kid for a bike ride” or “see a rock concert” is where I’m going with this.
Again, it is very difficult to debate this as certain portion of American public is conditioned over long period of time to take paradoxical situations as normal, you know the “American Way” of being able to hold two contradictory values as valid at the same time.
But, hey, who am I to pass a judgement - I had to flee my house when faced with people with guns.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/313 "2012-12-16T20:51:56Z")
> [@tomcar](#):
>
> Ouch.
>
> You miss read my post. I have lived in horrible areas and am not scared of guns at all. Repeat: I am not scared of anything.
> Gun owners are scared of the government, thieves, commies, etc.
>
> Don’t be offended. And I apologize if I pissed you off.
No apology needed; I let my ire get the better of me and got warned for it. Just believe me when I say that myself and all the gun owners I know are not motivated by fear.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/314 "2012-12-16T21:00:12Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#):
>
> Given the medical system will fail in living up to the task of preventing mass murders perpetrated by mentally ill people, then the only possible solution is to keep weapons out of their hands.
> [@simster](#):
>
> the proposal is increased physical security -
Umm.. what about option three: have someone on site who can do what the police would have to do anyway- confront the attacker with armed force of their own- only without the 20 minute response time?
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/315 "2012-12-16T21:08:55Z")
I don’t have an answer; my tendency would be to hope our leaders suggest solutions. [One former Governor has contributed his opinion](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/mike-huckabee-school-shooting_n_2303792.html):
[QUOTE=Mike Huckabee]
We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we have systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?
…
We don’t have a crime problem, a gun problem or even a violence problem. What we have is a sin problem. And since we’ve ordered God out of our schools, and communities, the military and public conversations, you know we really shouldn’t act so surprised … when all hell breaks loose.
[/QUOTE]
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### Author:  [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/316 "2012-12-16T21:10:55Z")
That attitude by the politician is very unfortunate.
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### Author:  [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/317 "2012-12-16T21:33:55Z")
> [@newcomer](#):
>
> I think it’s a question of various people making their own conclusions based on their set of beliefs, moral values, upbringing, experiences and what-not.
>
> So, from all that, in my corner, I find it mildly mentally retarded for a parent to teach an offspring how to shoot a deadly weapon. Call me crazy but what happened to “taking a kid for a bike ride” or “see a rock concert” is where I’m going with this.
>
> Again, it is very difficult to debate this as certain portion of American public is conditioned over long period of time to take paradoxical situations as normal, you know the “American Way” of being able to hold two contradictory values as valid at the same time.
This is so stupid. Have you ever taught your “offspring” how to use a knife in the kitchen? OMFG you retard, you’ve taught them how to wield a deadly weapon and butcher an innocent creature! They’ll be coming for you next! Quick, hide the chainsaw in the garage!
Do you have a problem with kids taking archery lessons? Fencing? Martial arts? Playing “soldier” or “cops and robbers” in the backyard? All of these things have their origins in war, death, and killing. But that’s not why any kid does it today. They do it because it’s fun!
Taking your kid out to the target range and teaching them how to respect and safely handle, use, maintain, etc. a gun is no different than any of those pursuits, except that some people have been conditioned over a long period of time to think “OH MY GOD guns are bad, bad bad bad” and totally bypass the rational part of their brain whenever the topic comes up.
I can understand saying that you personally would never use a gun or take your kids shooting, but saying that people who do are “mildly mentally retarded?” Get a grip.
If your kid is a demented psychopath and has threatened you with a knife when you told him to do his homework, sure, probably best not to introduce him to firearms just yet. You may also want to hide all your pointy objects and lock your bedroom door at night. But I cannot imagine what level of smothering, obsessive, deluded overprotectiveness you have to reach to proclaim that anyone who goes shooting with their normal, well-adjusted kid is mentally retarded.
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### Author:  [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/318 "2012-12-16T21:36:06Z")
> [@newcomer](#):
>
> So, from all that, in my corner, I find it mildly mentally retarded for a parent to teach an offspring how to shoot a deadly weapon. Call me crazy but what happened to “taking a kid for a bike ride” or “see a rock concert” is where I’m going with this.
>
> Again, it is very difficult to debate this as certain portion of American public is conditioned over long period of time to take paradoxical situations as normal, you know the “American Way” of being able to hold two contradictory values as valid at the same time.
There is nothing contradictory about. Just because your parents neglected to teach you a useful life skill doesn’t mean that every parent, scouting group, or camp councilor should. What is retarded is willfully promoting ignorance about firearms safety and use in general. That is one of the most irresponsible things you can do. Your child may happen upon a gun someday and it seems best to me at least for them to know what it is and how it works. Plenty of kids don’t and end up killing themselves or someone else because of their curiosity and lack of knowledge.
Let’s see, what were your alternative activity suggestions? Bike riding? Concert going? Let’s keep things in perspective here and realize that nothing is 100% safe especially those.
1. Children are at particularly high risk for bicycle-related injuries, with those under 14 years of age accounting for 13% of the fatalities, making this one of the most frequent causes of injury related death for young children. Bicycle helmet use by children 4 to 15 would prevent 39,000 to 45,000 head injuries and 18,000 to 55,000 scalp and face injuries annually.
[http://trafficsafety.org/safety/sharing/bike/bike-facts/bike-injuries-fatalities](http://trafficsafety.org/safety/sharing/bike/bike-facts/bike-injuries-fatalities)
1. 100 people were killed on Thursday, February 20, 2003 in a Rhode Island concert club when pyrotechnics set off by the tour manager of the evening’s headlining band, Great White, ignited flammable sound insulation foam in the walls and ceilings surrounding the stage. A fast-moving fire engulfed the club in 5½ minutes.
2. The December 3, 1979 Who concert tragedy in Cincinnati, Ohio, ranks as the most horrific rock concert incident in the United States. Eleven rock fans were crushed to death and scores injured.
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/319 "2012-12-16T21:42:10Z")
I was once personally involved in a simple incident. I’d be interested to hear comments from 2nd Amendment enthusiasts.
A mother learned her son, in his early 20’s, had purchased a revolver. The young man had no history of crime or major violence, but definitely seemed somewhat disturbed or delusional. He’d once been incarcerated involuntarily in a mental ward; I don’t know what the diagnosis was.
He’d purchased the gun legally. We had no certainty that he’d use the gun inappropriately, but he’d never been interested in target-practice or such, and had no apparent threats outside his own head. At his mother’s request I seized the gun without the man’s knowledge, returned it to the gun store, and gave him the proceeds. AFAIK, he never purchased another gun. It wasn’t too long later that he committed suicide.
I probably committed theft, and certainly violated his “2nd Amendment Rights,” but neither his mother nor I had any doubt that we’d done the right thing.
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### Author:  [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/320 "2012-12-16T21:50:24Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> He’d once been incarcerated involuntarily in a mental ward; I don’t know what the diagnosis was.
>
> He’d purchased the gun legally.
I am not jumping in on this “debate” as it is all about emotion from all sides but I had to point out that If he had been committed involuntarily he lied when he bought it and didn’t buy it legally.
(warning link is a PDF)
[
> [@](#):
>
> f.
> Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes a determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful
> authority that you are a danger to yourself or to others or are incompetent to manage your own affairs) OR have you ever been
> committed to a mental institution? (See Instructions for Question 11.f.)
]([www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf](http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf))
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