# How can we better prevent school shootings?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051 "2012-12-14T18:46:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/61 "2012-12-14T21:17:29Z")
> [@runner pat](#):
>
> The shooters you’re tying to stop don’t care about the laws. Those who are licencsed to carry are not the mass shooters.
[Wrong](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/). Of the 61 mass murders since 1982, more than three quarters of the guns were obtained legally.
Obligatory comic I trot out every time a shooting occurs (which is far too frequently): [http://thismodernworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/TMW2011-01-12acolorlowres-copy.jpg](http://thismodernworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/TMW2011-01-12acolorlowres-copy.jpg)
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### Author:  [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/62 "2012-12-14T21:18:52Z")
> [@Absolute](#):
>
> Again, the problem with this is that practically none of these shootings are performed with the types of weapons you’re talking about. Automatic weapons and actual assault rifles are expensive, and pretty much only owned by well-off collectors and hobbyists.
>
> You can buy guns that look scary, and some styles of gun sell well because they look scary (some definitions of “assault rifle” include purely cosmetic features that have little actual benefit outside of a military environment, e.g. a rail to mount a grenade launcher). But mechanically, these guns are semiautomatics and no different from hunting rifles. You’re not going to stop people from shooting up a mall by banning guns that look scary. They’ll just use a less-scary-looking gun to shoot 20 people. This is sort of the equivalent of trying to prevent people from speeding by banning cars that “look fast”.
>
> If there were a way to ban guns that were useful only for shooting up malls and schools, I’d be all for it. The problem is, any semiautomatic gun or revolver can shoot a lot of people very quickly. So unless you ban all guns except antique muzzle-loaders and single-shot sniper rifles, you’re not going to be able to come up with a gun ban that has any significant effect on what crazed shooters are able to do.
I think there’s a cite in another thread that the number of murders commited by fully automic weapons (which includes AK-47s and actual assault rifles) since 1938 is two.
Cue the people that come in saying pistols and assault style weapons have no sporting uses, as if self-defense isn’t a legit use, and that AR-15 are well established in the target shooting circuit and large caliber pistols can be used for hunting. (The 7.62X39 round can be used for hunting too, but admittably and AK-47 is the last thing I’d take, too innacurate compared to an SKS-45 or similar.
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### Author:  [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/63 "2012-12-14T21:24:33Z")
So far as I can see, there are roughly 20 school shootings per year since the early 80s.
2012 has had 32, the vast majority from Newtown. 20-40 deaths per year seems to be the norm.
There are around 60 million kids aged 4-18, and most of those are in schools.
So, whats the problem again? Sure, these incidences are tragic, but they are also so statistically insignificant it is irrational to base any sort of decision on them.
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### Author:  [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/64 "2012-12-14T21:25:18Z")
I’m left thinking of this as a No-Win Scenario.
Let’s imagine this scenario:
Gun ownership is limited to say, five guns per licensed gun owners. Each gun owner must first be licensed to buy a gun on an individual basis (meaning the state certifies this person is fit to be allowed to purchase a gun.) This would involve passing tests on gun safety, usage, and storage. It would also involve him signing a “waiver of rights” that would allow local police to perform periodic inspections on the gun storage location in his home and insure all of his legal guns are stored in that area and that said area meets legal regulations. For **each gun** he wishes to purchase, he must first get a license from the State, explaining why he needs the gun and then get the license approved and issued. He then can take that to a gun store and buy the gun. The use must match the gun. If you say you need the gun for hunting, then it typically can’t be a pistol unless you certify it will only be used in hunting for a small number of game where a pistol is really one of the appropriate options.
If those laws were both enforced and followed widely, gun availability for non-legal gun owners would be low. Further, an unstable person would have a much harder time acquiring a gun, and even then it would “take time” meaning perhaps they would have a “cooling off” event that would stop them from going to violence. [You might have some exceptions on the 5 gun limit for collectors, but the collector license would be extremely hard to get and require waiving even more privacy/rights to insure compliance.]
Okay, so that system might work if it was both followed and enforced. But if it was just imposed overnight, it would create a large black market here in America where guns are plentiful.
Further, such a regime could never be passed given America’s feelings on guns. Further, if America didn’t have such feelings on guns, it’s quite possible we wouldn’t have so many guns in the first place and we’d have less gun crime, so the whole issue would be less important.
It’s hard to get around the fact that for any of the regulations that might help to be passed and to actually work, society would have to be so different from what it currently is that it’d be a society in which guns weren’t a major issue in the first place.
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### Author:  [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/65 "2012-12-14T21:26:04Z")
> [@CutterJohn](#):
>
> So far as I can see, there are roughly 20 school shootings per year since the early 80s.
>
> 2012 has had 32, the vast majority from Newtown. 20-40 deaths per year seems to be the norm.
>
> There are around 60 million kids aged 4-18, and most of those are in schools.
> So, whats the problem again? Sure, these incidences are tragic, but they are also so statistically insignificant it is irrational to base any sort of decision on them.
They are pretty significant to the parents of the kids. But at least you get to shoot target practice at the range. Definitely worth it.
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### Author:  [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/66 "2012-12-14T21:27:19Z")
> [@This\_Just\_In\_2](#):
>
> Two things would help:
>
> 1. Outlaw ownership of all guns except for hunting rifles and shotguns.
How would this help? Hunting rifles and shotguns are actually excellent tools for mass slaughter - they are in fact far deadlier than handguns. Easier to shoot accurately, too.
If someone’s crazy enough to want to shoot up a school, mall, theater, etc., I don’t think he’s going to change his plans just because all he can get his hands on is a shotgun.
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/67 "2012-12-14T21:33:10Z")
I should mention that the current political impossibility for gun control is brought about by decades of public relations.
> **[Record-Low 26% in U.S. Favor Handgun Ban](https://news.gallup.com/poll/150341/record-low-favor-handgun-ban.aspx)**
>
> A record-low 26% of Americans favor a ban on handguns in the U.S. Also, for the first time, Americans are more likely to oppose (53%) than favor (43%) a ban on assault rifles. More broadly, Americans' support for stricter handgun laws and passage of...
In 1959 60% of people favored banning handguns. So what you’d need to do to ban handguns is get that many people liking the idea again.
If you wanna do that, I’d recommend taking pictures of the children’s corpses from that shooting today and putting them up on a billboard truck like the anti-abortion guys do with fetus images.
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/68 "2012-12-14T21:36:18Z")
> [@artemis](#):
>
> How would this help? Hunting rifles and shotguns are actually excellent tools for mass slaughter - they are in fact far deadlier than handguns. Easier to shoot accurately, too.
>
> If someone’s crazy enough to want to shoot up a school, mall, theater, etc., I don’t think he’s going to change his plans just because all he can get his hands on is a shotgun.
I don’t think you are accurately modeling the situation in you head.
Rifles do more damage, but they have fewer shots, take longer to reload and use heavier ammo.
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### Author:  [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/69 "2012-12-14T21:38:51Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#):
>
> If there were no guns in the United States, there would be no mass shootings. Doesn’t it then make sense that reducing the number and types of guns would result in a decrease in shootings? We need to have reasonable gun control laws that permit guns for hunting and perhaps basic protection, but automatic weapons, AK-47s, and the like have no place or useful purpose.
The problem with your proposal is that the shooters in these scenarios aren’t using automatic weapons. Those have been heavily regulated since 1934. The weapons these spree killers are using ARE basic guns for hunting and protection.
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/70 "2012-12-14T21:39:29Z")
> [@runner pat](#):
>
> The shooters you’re tying to stop don’t care about the laws. Those who are licencsed to carry are not the mass shooters.
> And with speed loaders, even a revolver is capable of over 100 rounds a minute.
Dude, that’s just silly. You’d need the speed loaders carefully arranged on a table in front of you. How you gonna carry 16 speed loaders?
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### Author:  [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/71 "2012-12-14T21:40:50Z")
> [@Sanity\_Challenged](#):
>
> If we as a nation really decided that the problem of mass spree killings was worth curbing our constitutional rights, would it not be more effective to curb freedom of speech and ban reporting of these incidents? Making mass shootings more illegal isn’t likely to have any practical effect, but taking the glory out of going out in a blaze of glory would certainly reduce the incentive to commit these acts. After all, these types of crimes have increased with the rise of 24-hour news networks and internet media, not with any increase of freedom in gun ownership.
Sadly, I think there’s quite a bit of truth in that. I would not countenance abridging the First Amendment, but would it be asking too much for the media to show some restraint in how it reports these tragedies? Assholes like the guy who shot up this school shouldn’t be made famous.
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### Author:  [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/72 "2012-12-14T21:46:12Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#):
>
> Instead, I would be a proponent of allowing school staff to be armed.
You seriously want kindergarten teachers to pack heat? Maybe I know too many teachers (my wife taught high school for years) but I seriously cannot wrap my brain around this ‘solution.’ Just add more guns! Up the ante! Instead of one mass shooter, let’s have twenty people shooting! :rolleyes:
The ugly approach is metal detectors and guards at school. The better answer is to rein in the second amendment and put meaningful restrictions on weapon ownership. The ideal answer it to transform our national attitude toward gun use and ownership to be more similar to that of other developed nations that have 1/10th the per capita gun violence that we do. But unfortunately that’s impossible, impractical and unrealistic.
But when my kids teachers start carrying in the classroom – that _is_ the day I pull them out of public school.
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### Author:  [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/73 "2012-12-14T21:46:32Z")
nm
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### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/74 "2012-12-14T21:47:35Z")
I’m happier living in a place with sensible gun control laws (Canada), but ultimately I do not think that imposing stricter laws in the US is going to make much difference - there are millions of guns available already, and a culture in which many view gun ownership of all sorts as a right. Changing the laws under those circumstances will have about as much impact as having pot illegal in the “war on drugs” has had - namely, not much. Doesn’t make sense to start an equally-futile “war on guns”.
Much more effective, IMO, would be to put serious resources into mental health issues, and to overhaul the laws relating to the mentally ill. I dunno about the US, but in Ontario at least it is very difficult (really, impossible) to legally and sensibly deal with someone who is crazy and appears to be dangerous - I’ve seen that first hand.
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/75 "2012-12-14T21:52:37Z")
> [@Sanity\_Challenged](#):
>
> I would never honestly condone abridging any of our constitutional rights, but consider this flying leap into hypothetical land.
>
> If we as a nation really decided that the problem of mass spree killings was worth curbing our constitutional rights, would it not be more effective to curb freedom of speech and ban reporting of these incidents? Making mass shootings more illegal isn’t likely to have any practical effect, but taking the glory out of going out in a blaze of glory would certainly reduce the incentive to commit these acts. After all, these types of crimes have increased with the rise of 24-hour news networks and internet media, not with any increase of freedom in gun ownership.
Are you under the impression that if someone cuts your feet off with a machete, and the news says nothing, that you can still dance?
On the upside, if you add a couple of bald eagles and some black helicopters and you could be president of the NRA someday.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/76 "2012-12-14T21:54:11Z")
> [@Lobohan](#):
>
> Are you under the impression that if someone cuts your feet off with a machete, and the news says nothing, that you can still dance?
There’s no need for hyperbole, **Lobohan**. All we need to do is uninvent mass media and social media and then that’ll fix everything.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/77 "2012-12-14T21:54:41Z")
> [@Oakminster](#):
>
> I’m not playing that game. I want to hear from the guy that proposed banning “assault weapons”.
You aready put your game piece on the table the instant you said that assault weapons weren’t used. That strongly implies that you have a specific definition of “assault weapons” that the those used in today’s shootings don’t fall into.
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/78 "2012-12-14T21:55:14Z")
Robots
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### Author:  [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/79 "2012-12-14T21:56:16Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#):
>
> I don’t even really think these sorts of measures would have necessarily prevented situations like Columbine or VT, I don’t think any of them planned to live through it so death wouldn’t have detered them, but I do think if someone were armed in those situations, they probably could have at least reduced the death count.
Feel free to cite an example where armed people have helped any of these situations. I vaguely remember citizens firing back at Whitman, but thats the only one that comes to mind.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/80 "2012-12-14T21:57:02Z")
The latest reports say the shooter used two handguns at the school.
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