# How can we better prevent school shootings?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 14, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051 "2012-12-14T18:46:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/81 "2012-12-14T21:57:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> There’s no need for hyperbole, **Lobohan**. All we need to do is uninvent mass media and social media and then that’ll fix everything.
We should start by banning message boards!
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/82 "2012-12-14T21:58:23Z")
> [@Lobohan](#):
>
> We should start by banning message boards!
Don’t knock it 'til you’ve tried it.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/83 "2012-12-14T22:01:01Z")
Message boards don’t kill people-people with message boards(and guns) kill people.
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### Author:  [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/84 "2012-12-14T22:02:14Z")
> [@Merneith](#):
>
> Online schools. Subsidize google fiber to every house in the nation. (It’s only 500 billion, Google would pay for some of that, in return for advertising opportunities, and anyway, we, as a nation, should be deeply embarrassed by sub-standard internet situation in the US.) Buying laptops for every child would probably cost about $150, wholesale. Part of the curriculum involves advance computer science topics, so the kids can do their own maintenance (and let’s face it, nobody is better with computers than kids are), and we pay for them with a $25 tax per box of ammo.
Fewer school shootings\* but an even bigger obesity problem than now. :dubious:;)\*\*
\*Actually, none if you had 100% adoption of virtual schooling. A kid could still be shot at home, but then it would be a home shooting.
\*\*Do we have a smiley that signifies “I get that you’re not serious” but doesn’t actually include a smile?
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### Author:  [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/85 "2012-12-14T22:04:45Z")
> [@Malthus](#):
>
> I dunno about the US, but in Ontario at least it is very difficult (really, impossible) to legally and sensibly deal with someone who is crazy and appears to be dangerous - I’ve seen that first hand.
We have exactly the same problem here in the US. Until the person actually commits a crime, they can’t be forced into treatment - and in the case of mass homicide, that’s a bit late for action.
I don’t know how to change the situation, though, without risking unjustly forcing ill-but-harmless people into treatment. Even most crazy people who seem like they may be dangerous turn out not to be. That’s one reason these tragedies are so hard to prevent: there’s a horrible noise-to-signal problem.
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### Author:  [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/86 "2012-12-14T22:08:44Z")
> [@Lobohan](#):
>
> I don’t think you are accurately modeling the situation in you head.
>
> Rifles do more damage, but they have fewer shots, take longer to reload and use heavier ammo.
No, I’m modeling it accurately. If you look at mass shootings, you’ll find that a significant number of them actually do involve the use of rifles or shotguns. These days, most long guns used for hunting have magazines which hold around five shots. They’re as quick to reload as pistols. All the shooter has to do is carry a few extra magazines, and he’s ready for mayhem. The rounds do weigh more, but given the quantities of ammo some of these jerks have on them when they begin their killing spree, I don’t think they’ll find that a big problem.
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### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/87 "2012-12-14T22:12:39Z")
> [@artemis](#):
>
> We have exactly the same problem here in the US. Until the person actually commits a crime, they can’t be forced into treatment - and in the case of mass homicide, that’s a bit late for action.
>
> I don’t know how to change the situation, though, without risking unjustly forcing ill-but-harmless people into treatment. Even most crazy people who seem like they may be dangerous turn out not to be. That’s one reason these tragedies are so hard to prevent: there’s a horrible noise-to-signal problem.
I think it’s a question of balance. In the past the balance was tipped too far in the direction of incarceration and other harsh measures in response to the mentally ill. In response, laws were reformed, but now the balance has tipped too far in the other direction - or at least, so it appears to me.
I know several families who are basically in dispair because they have family members who are ill and will not voluntarily get treatment, and in some cases are a potential danger to themselves and to others - and seemingly nothing can be done until they commit serious crimes. Even then, I understand, they may in some cases simply be dumped in with the general prison population.
My impression is that resources for dealing with the mentally ill who do not want to be helped are inadequate, both in terms of laws and in terms of funding and institutions.
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### Author:  [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/88 "2012-12-14T22:28:53Z")
> [@Skammer](#):
>
> The ideal answer it to transform our national attitude toward gun use and ownership to be more similar to that of other developed nations that have 1/10th the per capita gun violence that we do. But unfortunately that’s impossible, impractical and unrealistic.
It _does_ seem unrealistic to me, at least partially because there’s no evidence stricter gun laws could effect anywhere near an order-of-magnitude reduction in gun violence. Take a look [at this list of countries by firearm-related death rate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate), and click the arrow to order by homicide rate (because suicide rates aren’t reported there for most countries).
The United States comes in at 2.98 gun-related homicides per 100,000 people. Somewhat high, but comparable to Austria (2.94) or Belgium (2.43) and only around double that of Norway (1.78), Denmark (1.45), or Sweden (1.47). Is it significantly easier to procure a gun in Belgium than France? I dunno — but I suspect there’s a lot more going on WRT violence than gun control laws. And if that’s true, then clamoring for tighter regulations that’ll never happen may present a bit of a red herring.
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### Author:  [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/89 "2012-12-14T22:33:21Z")
> [@HoboStew](#):
>
> [Wrong](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/). Of the 61 mass murders since 1982, more than three quarters of the guns were obtained legally.
The point is that someone who is planning to shoot up a classroom will obviously not be deterred by laws about gun licensing and registration.
“Oh, I’d really like to go commit mass murder, but I’m afraid I don’t have the necessary permits.”
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/90 "2012-12-14T22:34:25Z")
> [@Absolute](#):
>
> The point is that someone who is planning to shoot up a classroom will obviously not be deterred by laws about gun licensing and registration.
>
> “Oh, I’d really like to go commit mass murder, but I’m afraid I don’t have the necessary permits.”
Most people don’t know where to attain an illegal gun.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/91 "2012-12-14T22:36:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Schools already do drills for this kind of thing. They have since Columbine. (And kids don’t need to be taught to duck.)
The Newtown school had such a program and put it into effect during the shooting. Children in other classes hid in closets and behind desks in case the shooter entered more classrooms.
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### Author:  [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/92 "2012-12-14T22:38:05Z")
> [@Absolute](#):
>
> The point is that someone who is planning to shoot up a classroom will obviously not be deterred by laws about gun licensing and registration.
>
> “Oh, I’d really like to go commit mass murder, but I’m afraid I don’t have the necessary permits.”
Thats not the point I was responding to. Someone said we need to crack down on guns and runner responded (in typical pro-gun fashion) that the people who commit these crimes dont care about the laws - IE they would still get the guns by illegal means. I was refuting that point. If they don’t have a gun it is harder to shoot people with one.
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### Author:  [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/93 "2012-12-14T22:44:53Z")
> [@HoboStew](#):
>
> Thats not the point I was responding to. Someone said we need to crack down on guns and runner responded (in typical pro-gun fashion) that the people who commit these crimes dont care about the laws - IE they would still get the guns by illegal means. I was refuting that point. If they don’t have a gun it is harder to shoot people with one.
Oh, I thought you were responding to his statement about _carrying_ a gun, which requires a permit in most states.
If you are going to flat out ban all guns, sure, your point is valid. But if you are still going to allow law-abiding people to buy guns, then most of these shootings will still occur, because most of the shooters are initially indistinguishable from law-abiding citizens.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/94 "2012-12-14T22:46:44Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#):
>
> I’m left thinking of this as a No-Win Scenario.
>
> Let’s imagine this scenario:
>
> Gun ownership is limited to say, five guns per licensed gun owners. Each gun owner must first be licensed to buy a gun on an individual basis (meaning the state certifies this person is fit to be allowed to purchase a gun.) This would involve passing tests on gun safety, usage, and storage. It would also involve him signing a “waiver of rights” that would allow local police to perform periodic inspections on the gun storage location in his home and insure all of his legal guns are stored in that area and that said area meets legal regulations. For **each gun** he wishes to purchase, he must first get a license from the State, explaining why he needs the gun and then get the license approved and issued. He then can take that to a gun store and buy the gun. The use must match the gun. If you say you need the gun for hunting, then it typically can’t be a pistol unless you certify it will only be used in hunting for a small number of game where a pistol is really one of the appropriate options.
>
> If those laws were both enforced and followed widely, gun availability for non-legal gun owners would be low. Further, an unstable person would have a much harder time acquiring a gun, and even then it would “take time” meaning perhaps they would have a “cooling off” event that would stop them from going to violence. [You might have some exceptions on the 5 gun limit for collectors, but the collector license would be extremely hard to get and require waiving even more privacy/rights to insure compliance.]
That’s the best idea I’ve heard of in a while. It would delay people getting guns, but back when it took a few days to get a letter in the paper no one said that their freedom of expression was infringed upon.
> [@](#):
>
> Okay, so that system might work if it was both followed and enforced. But if it was just imposed overnight, it would create a large black market here in America where guns are plentiful.
True. But here is a plan for that. All existing owned guns would be grandfathered in, but would have to be registered, and have a serial number added. Unregistered guns would be illegal. Each gun owner would be expected to keep a list, and to report guns which were stolen immediately.
It would be a great way of getting gang members and militia loons off the street.
> [@](#):
>
> Further, such a regime could never be passed given America’s feelings on guns. Further, if America didn’t have such feelings on guns, it’s quite possible we wouldn’t have so many guns in the first place and we’d have less gun crime, so the whole issue would be less important.
>
> It’s hard to get around the fact that for any of the regulations that might help to be passed and to actually work, society would have to be so different from what it currently is that it’d be a society in which guns weren’t a major issue in the first place.
I wonder what Madison and Hamilton would have thought about the current situation. The guns they protected were single shooters. It is not at all clear to me that the 2nd Amendment would be the same if the Founding Fathers had anticipated the current technology.
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### Author:  [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/95 "2012-12-14T22:50:05Z")
> [@HoboStew](#):
>
> They are pretty significant to the parents of the kids. But at least you get to shoot target practice at the range. Definitely worth it.
Yes. And the deaths of the 3000 children per year to auto accidents is also significant to the parents. And the 700 deaths to falls. And 30 deaths on playgrounds. And 800 deaths due to poisoning. And the many thousands of deaths to childhood diseases. And the several hundred deaths due to suicide. Several hundred to the flu. Several hundred to drowning. Several hundred to fires. Etc, etc.
You have to go pretty far down the list to find school shootings. Resources are better spent elsewhere, especially considering the insane opposition there would be to any such measure.
This is exactly the same as terrorism.. A completely overrated and overreported risk that everyone is paranoid about, and nobody has any right to be paranoid about it. It is an irrational fear. Tragic when it happens, obviously, but also, thankfully, _incredibly_ rare.
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### Author:  [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/96 "2012-12-14T22:50:06Z")
Since gun control has so little effect when a country is awash in firearms, how about some sort of voluntary or mandatory nationwide disarmament campaign. I know Brazil has done something like it – not sure how it’s worked out though.
A defensive strategy (arm more people/increase security) seems silly to me when we could be focusing on diminishing the causes themselves: mental illness + guns.
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### Author:  [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/97 "2012-12-14T22:52:36Z")
> [@Oakminster](#):
>
> Do you even know what an assault weapon is? Can you define the term? You understand that there were no assault weapons used in today’s shooting?
Well, I can’t speak to the specifics of today’s tragedy as news is still forthcoming. But I was using the word “assault” meaning a weapon designed for a primarily offensive purpose, generally anything that wasn’t a hand gun, shot gun or hunting rifle. Something that holds more than 6 rounds, etc.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/98 "2012-12-14T22:58:16Z")
> [@CutterJohn](#):
>
> This is exactly the same as terrorism.. A completely overrated and overreported risk that everyone is paranoid about, and nobody has any right to be paranoid about it.
Except that a great deal is done to prevent terrorism on all levels of government, and there were ever another major terrorism attack in the U.S., nobody would take this “it happens” attitude. The fact that something is rare does not mean that nothing should be done about it. There are cost-benefit ratios to consider, but the fact that something doesn’t happen much - school shootings, terrorism, whatever it is - does not preclude taking rational measures to prevent it. Some of the responses to terrorism were absurd, others made sense. Some ideas in response to school shootings or shooting sprees don’t make sense, but some do. Good responses would be changes that make sense on their own and not just as reactions to a tragedy, like changes intended to get health care for people with severe mental illness and prevent them from getting guns, and not, say, an intrusive and expensive ID card system for schools that wouldn’t do anything when someone walks to the door and opens fire anyway.
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### Author:  [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/99 "2012-12-14T23:03:08Z")
> [@Voyager](#):
>
> That’s the best idea I’ve heard of in a while. It would delay people getting guns, but back when it took a few days to get a letter in the paper no one said that their freedom of expression was infringed upon.
It’s the best idea if you’re trying to make things unnecessarily difficult for law-abiding gun owners out of spite. Gun control enthusiasts will be happy at the thought that they’ve forced all the nasty gun owners to grovel in front of bureaucrats, but it will do very little to curb these mass shootings.
The 5 gun limit is pointless. All you need for a mass shooting is 1 gun. Maybe 2 guns if you’re a careful mass murderer and you want to have a backup. Once a person has 1 gun, additional guns don’t really change the equation, so any limit simply punishes gun enthusiasts.
And the requirement that the gun owner has to justify their ownership is ridiculous. As if a potential mass murderer is going to be put off by the requirement that he “certify” he only use the gun for hunting. Give me a break. All this will do is inconvenience law-abiding citizens.
I don’t see the purpose of a waiting period either. Most of these mass shooters carefully plan in advance, and making them wait a week won’t help much.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [December 14, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-better-prevent-school-shootings/644051/100 "2012-12-14T23:03:30Z")
> [@Oakminster](#):
>
> Do you even know what an assault weapon is? Can you define the term? You understand that there were no assault weapons used in today’s shooting?
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> The latest reports say the shooter used two handguns at the school.
The shooter carried a Glock handgun and a Sig Sauer rifle, the latter of which seems to meet the (admittedly somewhat arbitrary) AWB criteria for an “assault weapon”, and is certainly an assault rifle.
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