So, the four years of Republican bullshit under Trump allows us to ignore the eight years of Republican bullshit while Obama was President?
When the Republicans renounce the stupid and dangerous policies they’ve pursued my entire life I’ll consider helping one that’s on fire by pissing on it.
Even the Normals in the GOP admit that it’s Trump’s party to lose, looking forward to 2024. At least they’re realistic about that.
But yes, really – the time to start correcting course was eight or ten years ago. Remember the Tea Party/Freedom Caucus? They are now dominant among GOP members of House and Senate. And their core value is winning for the Party. McConnell already said, if the next nominee is Trump, then he’ll be on his side as the Party nominee.
The Normals’ only way back would be if it became clear that doubling down on deplorableness is a losing strategy. And that has not happened. Trump, the man, lost. But in the House the GOP got closer; they could have saved the Senate had Trump himself not screwed up Georgia; they still dominate a majority of statehouses and if anything those are getting more hardline. Christine “I’m not a witch” O’Donnell would have had it a lot easier this cycle. Expect a whole crop of would-be Hawleys and Taylor-Greenes and Gaetzes coming up from the minors in the 2022 ballots.
If you are in a deep red state/district I could see pirating the primary to save a Normal from a Trumplorable, or to force them to sweat, but you’d have to bear in mind that policywise they’d be extraordinarily unlikely to do anything different. Just that they’d seek to do it following proper legal forms and procedures rather than by throwing tantrums and seeking to physically hurt you.
When have they ever indicated they are anything other than “severely conservative” (as Romney once called himself to CPAC)? Even the supposedly “moderate” Republicans like Collins and Murkowski vote the party line in 100% of the times it’s important.
This is no respectable wing of the Republican party. It is irredeemable. None of the current elected officials can move over and become moderate Democrats under any name, because they are miles too far right. They may be differentiable from those who are light years far right, but that’s as false as saying it’s harder to drown in the Great Lakes than in the Atlantic Ocean. To become a Democrat they’d have to move to dry land, a totally inhospitable environment. Do lungfish even have spines? Because Republicans don’t. And while I’m asking, how far can I drive this metaphor?
It is indeed very unlikely.
Mostly appeal? Yes. Only appeal? No:
As a Pennsylvania senior citizen who normally votes for Democrats but is on the lookout for Republicans I can support, I welcomed no-excuse-needed vote by mail last year. If the GOP PA legislature reverses this, it will be a significant issue for me. However, making it into a racial or rich-people’s issue isn’t going to increase the appeal of your position.
As for income, I don’t buy that the Republicans are the party of richer voters. It doesn’t make sense when we know Democrats have a big advantage among those with post-graduate degrees. I can’t find a recent age-adjusted survey on party affiliation, but I think that if it was conducted, you would find that rich voters, at almost any given age and poll-able income break point, now lean Democratic.
One thing the Democrats in Congress could do is basically agree to be bipartisan on sane legislation with the non-tRump Republicans, but not reach across the aisle to anyone else for any reason.
So if you want to get things done and you have a R after your name, you HAVE to go through one of the sane ones to even hope to get it done.
I view the non-Qult/Trumper Republicans as similar to Dr. Frankenstein. They created the monster. They may not have wanted the monster to run rampant but they should have known that was a risk when they created the monster. It’s incumbent upon them to help the rest of society defeat the monster, rather than expect society to help them defeat the monster in a way that prevents them from having to acknowledge the dangerous game they continue to play.
Moderate Republicans are about to get a big test, with the opportunity to vote for a new Voting Rights Act. In the recent past they have failed similar tests. That is a good litmus test to me to see if they have changed at all. If not, the Democrats should take the mentality that they are going to help the public and protect people’s rights whether the GOP likes it or not. Trying to make Pat Toomey seem respectable and pretend everything in politics is OK is not the answer. Aggressively trying to prove to the public that the Democrats are a positive alternative to Republicans and forcing the GOP to become a better advocate for their constituents real needs or die is the answer.
Now that you mention it centrist Republicans might do just that. If the majority of the country is near the middle and if the Republicans are perceived as too far right or whatever the easy thing to do would be working to become the dominant coalition of the dominant party. That would have the secondary benefit of potentially neutering the need to placate the progressive wing. Corporations must be salivating over the idea of a socially “conscious”, pro corporate, pro global trade uni-party.
I’ve heard the opinion expressed that the Lincoln Project was a overture in that direction - a batch of conservatives positioning themselves as allies to the democrats in the hopes of influencing them.
As a voter, not an office holder I just did this very thing. Because in Arizona law unaffiliated voters cannot vote for either presidential candidate (but can choose either party ballot for down ballot races), I will change again before the deadline in 2024. Which party I will register with will be determined by if I more want to support the Democrat, or more want to draw support from a specific Republican. I was told that over ten-thousand former Republicans also abandoned the GOP in Arizona since January 6th. I waited a little longer to see if everyone who saw the light on January 7th voted to confirm impeachment.
I have always known Donald Trump was a loser (even when my former party was orgasmic about him). I had not realized until lately that 90% of the rest of the party were either insane, or both immoral and lack ANY standards at all. The modern GOP reminds me of the Church of Rome during the middle ages insisting scientists rescind their discoveries that they themselves KNEW to be true in order to retain power. Fully one half of the current ‘R’ Party have deluded themselves to a point of insanity, and the remainder are also spreading the insanity (they know to be false) to retain power. The really insane one are the danger – but the posing as insane ones keep indulging them. The posers (well some of them) might be reachable.
Not only is the Republican Party power hungry, they also seem to have lost interest in truly conservative issues and only want to influence elections through fear. It is deplorable because they try to reduce voter turnout through fear - - but they also pump up fear among their own party. The idea that Biden is a Socialist is absurd to any sane person whom is paying even a little attention but they must fan fears deep in the subconscious of their white voters and they are willing to do it. The only way the progressives can lose in the long run is to sacrifice their souls and adopt the tactics of the right. Stay on the moral high ground and Democrats will eventually win everything.
It is in the short term that we who are not Trump supporters can speed up the process.
I could not agree more with the part I made bold. But you DO want to support the sane Republicans. Look how long I waited before I abandoned the party, when they are in the right – go ahead and support the sane Republicans. Many of those voters who have gone Independent recently may move back to the right down the road, wouldn’t it be nice if there was some moderate influence there if they do?
By painting ALL Republicans with the same brush turns it back into an “us” against “them” which makes any real compromise and incremental growth impossible. You are in power and you have the moral high ground-- don’t give that up to drive the opposition into the sea. Live up to your moral ideals and rescue those moderate Republicans and/or support them where they sit when they are on the right side of things. Your approach is understandable but in my opinion short sighted.
The first paragraph of this post is the most sensible thing I have ever heard. Let me know where and when I can start- I am eager to take this Batman approach to voter suppression!
Unfortunately, the end of Donald Trump will not be the end of problem with the right. There is a whole new generation indoctrinated in this hate everyday (and how ironic that the institution that is supposedly founded upon love for your neighbor is instead a prime source of the fear and hate which are now foundational on the right end of our political system!).
I have overestimated the Republican voter for five years now; I have believed if they saw the truth they would change and grow. How sadly incorrect! They just build a wilder (but more entrenched) justification for their stance or behavior. That is the true legacy of Rush Limbaugh- he taught the right how add plausible deniability into their everyday thoughts. They can justify anything no matter how stark the cognitive dissonance becomes. We need to fight that with REAL and TRUE SCIENTIFIC EDUCATION. Every child in America needs to learn how to reason and how to draw conclusions. Hell, we could start by teaching half the country how to recognize a FACT when it bites them on the ass. (Okay sorry, someone slapped me and I am aware of myself again.)
The next Trump will be far, far better at this game and we need to instill a respect for TRUTH, for FACT, for REASON, for CIVILITY, for MORALITY, in short for all the ideals and characteristics Americans have always admired and sought, and the lack of which cost us deeply under our 45th presidents abandonment of those ideals. The left is morally and historically correct about all issues in our times. We just have to resist the temptation to become like “them” (the new Republican Party) to bring all rational adults to our way of thinking. And I say that as a lifelong Republican until last week! I do not fear Trump running again (if he does that might be the straw that breaks the GOP), I fear the Democrats not being the clear and obvious better option that they are now. We must resist the power of the dark side (so to speak). We must do good by being good and then in four years we will the only possible answer.
McConnell was able to do what no liberal ever could have-- he got me to leave the Republican Party. He is such a slimy, two faced hypocrite I could no longer stand to be associated with him at all.
At least Trump was stupid and short sighted. McConnell is the true evil, a soulless power monger adopting or dropping any position, any policy, anything at all to get his evil way and/or stay in power. He will work against Trump as much as any Democrat in 2024. He has used Trump all he can and will deny him the nomination if he can. McConnell HATES Trump and will do all he can behind the scenes to undermine him. He might truly support a clone like Hawley whom he can more easily control but he loses nothing by saying he will support Trump IF he is nominated – he won’t be if the turtle has any say in the matter.
I agree with this and have left the party for just that reason. But giving those differentiable’s a chance to be the core of the party sometime in the future may be worthwhile. The GOP is in their dark ages; they deny science and fact and reason and decency and morality and even fighting fair. But there will be a renascence in the future. Romney is not ‘severely conservative’, he was willing to say that to the most conservative donors on the planet. If we keep the most progressive (on the right) on life support, they may be able at some time to drag a majority of the survivors back toward the center once the plague kills off all the science deniers over there.
The thing I keep thinking everyone on the left is forgetting is the passage of time. I remained a Republican for five years while Trump held the reigns and concerned myself with the future. Now I have switched over and there could not be Democratic President I admire as much as Biden. He will do the hard work for the next years. But more than that, he will do so with an eye toward the fifth and sixth and tenth and twelfth year.
Do the work for the current situation by all means. But plan and build toward a better and brighter future after this time. For the most part, family heirlooms do not materialize in only one generation. We must stay moral and honest and true, we must be the better option so when the GOP is reborn it will be more like us, not more opposed to us. (While I am not a Democrat myself, I do support all progressive issues and work with the local Democratic Party on democratic policy. I say us because I fight for the causes on the left and agree with them – but I did that as a Republican too.) It might be four years or eight years, hell it could be twenty years. But the far right Republican Party is doomed unless all of America fundamentally changes in a major way. Actually it is not doomed, it will probably always exist in some form – but it cannot sustain any wins over large areas or large issues. To represent genuine American views it must move very far left. They are all fearful, once there is a viable moderate wing to the Republican Party it will gain adherents.
This sounds sensible to me too. You don’t want to be too exclusive, but benefiting and granting power to the very few sane Republicans seems like a no brainier win to me.
Completely agree and like that this is a forward thinking strategy. At sometime in the future most of the right is going to recall the benefits of truth and fact and while they will not admit how twisted they were back then (now), they will be back in reality then and they will have to become better or create something new which is better. BUT ONLY IF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY STAYS ON THE MORAL HIGH GROUND AND WE DON’T START USING THEIR PLAYBOOK!!!
Much of the current right is a lost cause. But one day many of them may wake up with the scales removed from their eyes (or in a longer term-- some will die off). There will always be the far right kooks, and sadly the entire party has shown us they can be lured over there to crazy town with the right combination of fear and hate in support of ‘should be’ and ‘aught to be’ wishes in their crocodile brain pans. But the best way to win is to have a better alternative they can move toward without abandoning a label of morality and without losing face.
I believe we SHOULD help the few remaining non-Trump Republicans. I think we do that best by remaining good and moral and caring better. Being the better option works wonders. But painting all of the most reasonable and moderates in the GOP as the same as their classmates makes the entire opposition party farther away. Why don’t we court some of the opposition and ignore the enemy? If we treat them like like the rest of the pack – who could blame them for becoming indistinguishable from the rest of the pack. Think about what want the opposition party to be in ten years for goodness sake!
What concrete actions would represent helping vs. hurting the moderate Republicans to you? If the Democrats don’t want to just lose to Trump 2.0 in the future, they have to pass legislation that helps regular Americans and gives people an alternative to the anger and resentment that led to Trump winning. This means that on the slew of issues that are nearly guaranteed to be filibustered by the GOP, the Democrats need to do something to break the gridlock - either they need to use every loophole in the book to work around the GOP, just get rid of political norms, or make real compromise with Democrats something the GOP moderates need to do as a matter of political survival. It also means that the Dems have to campaign against the GOP in swing races, which are the races where the GOP candidates are going to be from the moderate wing of the party.
The nature of our system is that the Democrats don’t have much of any say over what the most extreme Republicans do. That means they can either capitulate to moderate Republicans and hope that this time they actually self-police their own members, or they can try to put those moderate Republicans in as uncomfortable a position as possible and make the contradiction of being against Trump while doing nothing to stop the disease that created him difficult for them.
Perhaps you are right, maybe there are only two choices. . . but I doubt it.
For certain both party’s have far too much power and once elected the conference and the caucus force a sort of group think that is far too limiting. The positions at the extreme ends of the spectrum become the attacking points for the opposition. This happens on every single issue and even things that are supported by two-thirds of voters become wedge issues.
(Completely off topic rant: If you are not familiar with Daniel Levitin’s book The Organized Mind which discusses how our brains [well, how typical brains] react to winning and losing, I highly recommend it. Among many other topics he addresses how we experience hope and fear and winning and losing and the evolutionary value of sticking to the decisions which have led you to survive thus far.)
Before I say anything further, because I often take so long to get to my point I want to mention one important point up front and without any support (yet). I believe a guiding philosophy should be to look always at the long game and strive to remain forever on the right side of history. It is better to suffer a momentary set back then to win some minor battle and arm the opposition with "see, both sides do it!!: We all know they do it as regularly as breathing but if one progressive does something with even the appearance of impropriety nearly one half the voters believe “in politics that is just how things are – both sides are the same so let’s vote for the ones who go to our church.”
I see it all the time in my own family and it makes me want to vomit. There is never any discussion at all of solving problems-- there is only assigning blame and protecting the “official” position. To add to that mess, unlike public discourse where at least the debated positions have been somewhat vetted and reduced to defendable sound bites, in my family whatever drunken knee jerk reaction is first conceived is defended as if was carved upon tablets from Deities above.
One example is gun control. A daughter’s date mentions that guns, GUNS are the problem! If you eliminate the guns, all violence disappears . . . you know in Europe where not everyone carries a sidearm… But of course Uncle Red Neck says the problem is there are not ENOUGH guns. If everyone HAD to carry a weapon (like in Israel!) there would be very little violent crime because the illegal firearm holder will have no advantage and therefore not commit crimes.
Absolutely no one says: The private ownership of firearms in this country goes back to its founding and has become an important point of national habit and pride. There are millions of weapons already out there and damn few of them are registered. Further, most gun owners are responsible and safe, but there ARE some problems! Far too often firearms are in the hands of those who should not have access to them. There are MAJOR warning signs when an individual is so paranoid they amass huge arsenals and enough ammunition to support a small nation. No one says when all the weapons a person owns are tactical and meant to kill humans – and that same person self medicates with drugs and/or alcohol, well that might be a concern.
The point is no one wants to address the entire issue with an eye to solving the problems. Instead we have two deeply distrustful groups, one saying “take away their guns!!” and the other saying: “The only way you are taking my guns is after you have killed me and I have taken as many of you with me as possible!!”
What a surprise those two groups cannot find common ground! It seems to me every issue in America today is remarkably similar – everything is all or nothing. There is no need to understand the other side, to address their concerns, to try to resolve anything. It is never about solving – it is about proving to your own base how much you hate and disagree with THOSE people and how much you are going to push your agenda down their throats!! No half measures, no compromise – there is only victory at any cost.
Our opposition are demons- it is obvious and it is unquestioned and it is true for both sides. How much I admire Joe Biden for even TRYING to rise above this bullshit. But more than that he is succeeding! He has resisted what must be a hell of a temptation to point out all of Trump’s failures. I have no doubt he hates Trump for what he did to our nation, to our allies, to our institutions. But I also believe he is trying to respect and find agreement with Trump’s former supporters. I believe he is trying to look at the issues and NOT MAKE IT ABOUT THE PEOPLE.
(One more mini rant: I am told everyone had to read Getting To Yes by Fisher and Ury in college. I must not have gone to a very good college because I never heard of it back then but I very highly value it now. There are many valuable concepts in that book that seemed so common sense to me that I thought I already knew them. But I didn’t and while I will still occasionally use tactics I picked up reading through the book numerous times – I find the true benefit in adopting (as much as possible) the philosophy that the other side may be right about SOMETHING. I admire the concept that although the opposition MAY be wrong – they believe they are right and I need to fully understand their argument before I try to explain (which in my case means persuade others to adopt) my views.
My suggestions are two fold:
Play the long game. A set back today may lead to a huge win sometime in the future. Try to imagine how much better it would be to pass a bill or make an amendment in two years because everyone agrees with your bill or amendment rather than forcing through a bill that will create a backlash and that the opposition will try to destroy at every opportunity. (The Affordable Care Act comes to mind.) I know it seems foolish to play by the rules when the other side is cheating constantly. But by doing so you accomplish many things: You establish trust for future negotiations, you set a good example that others who are perhaps not as bold as you are may follow (they can’t imagine it so YOU have to model it for them – parenting 101), you deny any attacks of ‘see your side does it too!’, it may create good will- or it may cause them to underestimate you in the future (^^) which are both good things for your future negotiations.
(^^ See the Magnum P.I. where Magnum asks Ivan if he saw the sunrise - Did You See The Sunrise? Part 2)
Be the moral party that is on the right side of history. This is easy in concept because all the better ideas are on our side of the table. But we must also do it in a way that is above minor partisan squabbles. Be honest, be respectable, be consistent and the other side will come around.
(I have to admit this is very difficult right now because so many Republicans have lost touch with reality. But they are like a fourteen year old girl who got cheated on by her boyfriend – they are going to rant and rave for far too long, but sooner or later they are going to get over it and start seeing things more realistically. Now understand, they want the unmitigated bullshit the right is telling them to be true - - - but eventually they are going to have to face reality and then YOU want to be the nerdy guy next door who always knew her value. In other words you want to be an alternative she can turn toward.)
Be honest, be fair, take the other side seriously, and respect yourself and your positions as well as respecting the humanity of those on the right. Speak truth and call out lies without demonizing those who told the lies. Live up to the ideal that will inspire all to admire you and want to join up with you. Avoid group think and pandering. When you identify the fears of your party members – don’t exploit those fears, instead develop policies that will address those fears. Sometimes, maybe you need to tell your own supporters they are wrong. That they have overreacted and need to calm down a bit and that while their concern is well founded the solution is too strong and goes too far.
(Now watch me contradict myself.)
Fortunately Trump and his allies are (in my opinion) dumb and short sighted. They think everyone really thinks like they do but are afraid to say it out loud – or at a minimum they think everyone SHOULD think like they do. When they go after the moderate Republicans they will primary them with fire-breathing right wing hacks like they themselves are. (Hey, I wish they were not lying trolls but that is just the truth of the matter. I am just phrasing it more casually to you than I would to them. As someone who has been in that group for several decades, I am claiming the right to talk smack about them you don’t get to unless you were on the inside also - just like you can’t insult my brothers like I do.) If their party is foolish enough to nominate those kinds of candidates, they will mostly likely lose in the general (and not even learn from their mistakes). We can help the moderate candidate during the primary by simply speaking truth. “Ms. Moderate Incumbent is chair of a highly funded department, your freshman challenger if elected will be the lowest ranking member of the committee to limit over fishing of the north Atlantic which has an annual budget of over One Hundred THOUSAND dollars and will affect your landlocked state not at all.” I really hope the Democratic Party increases its majority in both houses in 2022, but not at the cost of the few sane Republicans. I hope we can funnel our efforts into races where the opponent is truly objectionable (but I fear you are correct- the opportunities will be where the moderates are).
I only jumped into this thread because I have this horrible fear that the conventional wisdom stated below is correct and functions at warp speed.
Power always corrupts.
I left my party after decades because they went astray. I aligned with the Democratic Party because I believe they are correct (more or less) on every single issue. I will be very dismayed if you guys become drunk on power and turn into a version of those clowns I just abandoned. I guess I am saying that if you stay as admirable to me as you are now, you will retain me and other moderates like me. Start playing the games ‘they’ play and I might as well go back.
Progressives, please be the good parent we need to live with, not the fun parent we can barely survive staying with for two weekends a month. (I may have made this too personal.)
To me, saying it’s the Republicans’ problem and not ours is putting party above country. They are our fellow countrymen, so it is our problem. You can take over a democracy even if you are not the majority
We need to be making it easier for actual principled Republicans to side with us. We need to make sure we don’t let the “culture wars” be the defining characteristic of our party, and focus on actually helping the people who Trump captured. That gives the Pubbies a bit of cover, while deflating the Trumplican platform.
And we’ve got to stop this pointless war between the progressives and liberals, when both currently are interested in going in the correct direction. The time to fight among yourselves is when you’ve won, not while the threat is still looming.
I’m not, BTW, saying we should cede ground on the culture war. It’s a focus issue. It’s about not throwing ammo to the Trumplicans. What I’m basically saying is that the allies should not be fighting against one another. Our common goal should be to stop the rise of authoritarianism and fascism in the United States.
This, I think, is pretty much the be-all and answer-all of this thread.
There are issues Democrats could push that would be easy for moderate Republicans to support. Point out that we spend a colossal and wasteful sum of money on healthcare and get terrible returns on it, and that if we reformed to “AmeriCare” (Medicare for All,) we’d spend far less and get far better - efficiency still tickles the ears of many people.
Attack defense contractors for wasting taxpayer money, rather than hammering the defense budget itself - the former comes across as wisely watching out for the taxpayer, the latter comes across as an attack on the men and women in uniform themselves.
The problem is that when you talk about “giving Pubbies cover”, you’re talking about giving them cover from their own party. You’re talking about making it possible for republicans to side with democrats without their fellow republicans noticing that they’re siding with democrats.
This is 1) impossible, and 2) highly misguided, because the only way Democrats could even attempt do this would be to betray their own constituency and only advance policy that is 100% republican in nature.
And 2 simply will not work - Obamacare was originally a republican health care plan. How did that work out?
The thing that I think needs focus on is that there are issues in this moment that the GOP is broadly contesting that should not be up for debate. Every citizen should have the right to vote, and arbitrary restrictions shouldn’t impede that. People who conspire to undermine democracy should be punished so that no one thinks it’s a good idea to try that in the future. Conspiracy theories should be not be the basis of government policies.
There are also some thorny issues involving where exactly the line is between public health-based restrictions in a massive crisis vs. freedom, and between looking out for vulnerable people who have been economically ruined by a crisis they have no control over, but the GOP has not engaged in these issues seriously. The GOP is the party that trafficked in conspiracy theories regarding covid and is now in broad opposition to economic relief for fear that the Democrats might be able to take credit for it. There are some moderate Republican politicans who personally stayed away from this type of stuff, but they generally haven’t done anything to police their fellow politicians who embraced it.
I agree that there are genuinely contentious issues where it should hopefully be possible for two (or more) factions that vehemently disagree to compromise on. If we can’t agree on the basics of our democracy and the social contract between the people and their government, we aren’t going to get there. And I don’t believe we’re going to get there if we treat the current state of politics as an honest disagreement when the leadership of one political party rejects democracy and a common-sense governmental approach to a public health and economic crisis. I don’t think this is cause for a revenge campaign on the part of Democrats, it’s simply cause for Democrats to refuse to compromise on issues that shouldn’t be grounds to compromise on.
First, I agree with everything you say. In fact I will go further on most points. But I don’t have as much time as I have had recently. If I do not address each point, it is due to time not your very well reasoned post.
As I watched MSNBC News this morning I was reminded how little empathy many, many Republicans have and how it was just as bad when I was a child. The difference is that now I can see the error even if they can’t. They HATE me for “betraying my upbringing” and being in any manner open minded (and most of all- not being afraid of everyone who is different from ‘us’).
Of course you are correct, but I have started numerous threads with the naive notion that if they could just be subjected to the truth, conservatives would change their tune. How I have overestimated these people, many of whom helped to raise me and can be (were at one time) decent, moral and kind people who were just a bit stiff and judgy.
Those who have bought into the delusion are too far invested to reconsider. They will walk across a desert to justify their delusion before they would cross an air conditioned room to learn the truth. It has become their identity. That is why I mention the Dark Ages of Europe so often. They want what they want to be true so strongly they will “believe” it (claim it is true) despite knowing deep down it is questionable at best. For example, I received dozens of videos from “authoritative sources” (a California lawyer, a nurse from the midwest, etc.) who “proved” that wearing masks was more dangerous than NOT wearing a mask. Without a moment of research I could destroy most of the arguments just based upon reason, logic, and sixth grade health class. The result is they don’t send them to me any more – but they make sure everyone who knows me knows that I have been brain washed by the liberals and sold my soul to devil, etc., etc., etc.
All I can think to do in those situations is speak the truth and back up your points with high quality sources and discredit their sources in a kind and supportive manner. (I have failed in this regard, I cannot hide my contempt.) And of course those who are responsible for these crimes should be prosecuted and punished if they are elected officials or not.
While conspiracy theories should not be a basis of policy, acknowledging where they are coming from is okay. You do not have to endorse a point of view to acknowledge that it exists. What is more, make them acknowledge YOUR point of view. That should not be hard, see this document you say you revere? It says all men are created equal … not all white, land owning male members of society. But even if it did at one time mean that, here let’s look at these amendments…
If you can respect they have a right to be as wrong as they are, and they will acknowledge your view then you have a place to start talking substance.
Even when they are shown contradictory statements given by Trump himself within the same week they are not willing to see reality. You are correct, you cannot win that argument. Let them shout themselves out, calmly state: “The science does not support that view”, then explain to them that you would be fine if they all want to self quarantine away from the rest of society, but as long as they will be going into grocery stores, and churches, and DMV’s that I have to go into also – they have a responsibility to wear a mask even when they are in their conservative mind meld enclaves.
As for the relief fear – the idea that Dems could take credit is a small consideration. This is a fiscal matter, this is where the underlying racism is most dangerous. They will never say it in public, but liquor them up in their country clubs with only other white faces and they will tell you they’ll be damned if they will let a lot darkies get free money from the government! That is ‘our’ money, white people are the only ones who work hard or pay taxes or are true Americans.
I only quoted a part of this paragraph because I don’t have the luxury of time to open a vein and bleed my core beliefs all over this thread. I agree in all particulars, and back in the good old days (when serious men wrote whole books of philosophy upon the very nature of reality and governance, and society) much smarter people than myself would discuss this at length.
It seems the way to bring the fight to them is in not becoming them. I am sorry sir or madam, but nothing supports that view of things, it is sadly a false premise. But I respect your right to hold your own views and I am here to negotiate a sensible solution that will serve our whole society and address your concerns as well as mine. It takes unbelievable patience, but it is easy to overcome most of their arguments because they are often given to sweeping statements which can be readily diminished. My favorite is that God Almighty Himself founded the United States and all must be done in accordance with his will.
Well, okay. If God set this up, he made it a SECULAR government for specifically designed for compromise. That was smart of God, give the unbelievers a say in things until they are eventually converted to HIS way. What compromise do you suggest we start with?
Listen, I come as close to hating the fuckers as anyone and I was one of them most of my life. But now I want to warn all progressives: don’t be like us. Be sincere and be honest – but above all be results oriented and kindly persistent.
Listen, I have a hard time believing you really hold that point of view in light of these statements you made here (like McConnell voting to not convict and within the hour declaring Trump was responsible), but let’s not get bound by that. I am willing to assume you are sincere, you believe X,Y, and Z; at the same time I believe A, C, and E. On this particular issue is there any place we can find agreement? No? Obstruction is how children resolve disputes. Can’t you do any better than that? What if we agree to S, T, U, and V? Does that work for you? I am sure it does, that is pretty sweet for you - - how about B, D, L, M, U, and lower case Z? Once they agree to engage something can be done and time will always be on our side.
You also bring up a good point that is un-American. Call out lies and false narratives as fighting against patriotism. That is a false account sir – In this building where the strongest testament to democracy and freedom is written everyday, I will ask you to neither sully the location- nor the proceeding with partisan rhetoric devised to excuse your fellow party members and pander to your base. I have to believe that if it is done with formality and respect eventually they will abandon the ruse.
Well, I have said too much that should not have been said, and not enough because I cannot phrase the full truth I know from being on both sides of this debate. Of course you are correct, I just warn – do not become them to defeat them. The ends will not justify means. It will just lead to: “See! You too!!”
I was reading through this correcting spelling and grammar when I caught this sentence again. That is playing into their game, that is how they proceed. You have core beliefs and they should be addressed and realistically you and I know they should be the basis of policy. But they don’t know that and they will never believe that. You just need to drag your concern into the light and they just have to acknowledge it. Then kick it around and try to find solutions. Don’t get locked into positions, don’t see the end you want and work backwards. Start where you are and make them see it and understand it. Then see and understand where they are. And only then agree that we all citizens and in this together despite our differences and look for solutions. Get them to offer suggestions. When you are talking about theoretical concepts no one is locked into a position that must be the result. Ideas are amazing – try to get the opposition to consider a few new ones.
while we are at it we can look at and consider the ones they hold dear and see if we can understand them without adopting them.
I gave my best guess as to the actual numbers in another thread, but I don’t think this is viable given the current distribution of voters. The popular vote nationwide seems to be roughly in the low to mid 50s Ds and mid to high 40s for the Rs. The problem with developing this type of coalition you describe is the distribution within the parties. The Democratic voters are probably distributed something like 2/3 Biden / Obama / Clinton Democrats and 1/3 Bernie / AOC type Democrats. On the Republican side, however, it’s probably something like 5 to 10 % Romney / Collins / Murkowski Republicans and 90 % Trump Republicans. The 2/3 of moderate Democrats would be fools to throw out the 1/3 of Bernie voters to peel off 5 to 10% of the Republican coalition. Romney can bring himself, but he’s going to bring very few voters with him.
I agree that currently a mass migration to the Democratic Party is unnecessary. However, if they are the only viable mechanism to achieve political power then the necessity changes.
There is another option, but likely unpalatable to Romney / Collins / Murkowski / Kasich, etc. They can become more liberal, peel off the Joe Manchins and Kyrsten Sinemas, and form a moderate party that way. In specific, by becoming more liberal, what I mean is a complete repudiation not just of Trump, but of his voters.. Call them out for what they are, a bunch of conspiracy theory believing authoritarians who want to oppress liberals by force of arms if necessary, and that they completely disagree with those methods. If the so called moderate Republicans could pull that off, they could probably get some of the moderate Democrats to follow them over. But there’s not a snowball’s chance in hell of that happening.