# How can we tell whether the European Union is corrupt? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2002, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711 "2002-08-13T16:34:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/1 "2002-08-13T16:34:17Z")
An apology to my European friends: Being from New Jersey, I tend to assume that hard-to-explain governement actions are due to payoffs. This idea may be totally wrong in your case. [Yasser Arafat has personal assets estimated at a value of $1.3 billion](http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=197188&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0). Where did he get all that money? The only possible source is that he stole it, from donations intended for the benefit of the poor Palestinian people. These donations are made by the UN and by the EU. Since billions of dollars are floating around, a thought comes to mind that some of that money may be finding its way to the EU decision-makers. Here are some questions: [ul][_]Who in the EU decides whether to give money to Arafat and how much?[_]How do these people hold office? Are they appointed? Elected by the public? Elected by a group of EU insiders?What mechanism exists to determine whether any of them are taking bribes?[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/2 "2002-08-13T16:44:11Z")
**december:** \*Yasser Arafat has personal assets estimated at a value of $1.3 billion. \* Um, your sole source for this statement is a single sentence in an article in the Israeli newspaper Ha’Aretz, which attributes it only to one “IDF Intelligence Chief Major General Aharon Ze’evi” without providing any information whatsoever as to what Ze’evi’s “estimate” is based on. Perhaps we should try to find out whether the statement is actually true before we work ourselves into a tizzy of speculation about theft, corruption, and bribery on the part of EU officials? ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/3 "2002-08-13T16:46:03Z")
[ul][_]compared to what?[_]Who’s _we_?Google is your acquaintence. Your questions are factual. Why don’t you go and find the answers to them rather than pretend your tendentious OP is a request for information?[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/4 "2002-08-13T16:54:35Z")
\<\\> Actually, the people I had in mind are citizens of EU countries – those whose taxes have helped make Arafat a billionaire. I ought to have written _you_, rather than _we_. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/5 "2002-08-13T17:04:15Z")
How can we tell whether the Unites States is corrupt? After all the United States did give the PA $238 million between 1994 and 1998. [http://www.germany-info.org/relaunch/info/archives/background/EUANDMID.pdf](http://www.germany-info.org/relaunch/info/archives/background/EUANDMID.pdf) _sigh_ - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/6 "2002-08-13T17:12:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \* > \*\*How can we tell whether the Unites States is corrupt? \*\* It is. Fortunately the two-party system helps to keep it in check to some degree, as do the media. I’m old enough to remember the early 1950’s, when the US was giving financial aid to Chiang Kai Chek. He used some of that money to make donations to the very legislators who were voting to give him the money. Foreign donations were legal in those days, IIRC, so they weren’t secret. Still, the entire process was scummy. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/7 "2002-08-13T17:16:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Actually, the people I had in mind are citizens of EU countries – those whose taxes have helped make Arafat a billionaire. I ought to have written _you_, rather than _we_. \*\* “Allegedly”. If it’s true, I’d be rather annoyed. I await further proof. The corruption at European Commission level is well known and a damned shame. However I fail to see the connection between EU corruption and PA corruption. _Yawn_ ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/8 "2002-08-13T17:22:47Z")
I don’t follow the logic. Supporting a corrupt institution does not make an entity corrupt. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/9 "2002-08-13T17:23:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > [B The corruption at European Commission level is well known… \*\* That’s very interesting to me. EU corruption is _not_ well-known on this side of the pond. Can you point to some cites or provide any information about that subject? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/10 "2002-08-13T17:23:43Z")
Yawn! December want’s to knock Europeans. December finds an Israeli who wants to knock Arafat. December uses a big lie to make an even bigger one. You have made no connection between Arafat’s wealth (if any) and funding from Europe. IIRC, funding from the US and Arab world together outweigh the EU’s contribution! For your information, every member state of the European Union is a fully fledged democracy with equivalents of a two-party system, separation of powers, independent judiciary and an aggressive investigatory press. If you want to knock Europe, why not find a real question rather than just trolling. Or at least find some real facts to start a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/11 "2002-08-13T17:34:15Z")
**hawthorne:** _Google is your acquaintence. Your questions are factual. Why don’t you go and find the answers to them rather than pretend your tendentious OP is a request for information?_ Silly **hawthorne** , you’ve been around here for 2005 posts’ worth and you still expect **december** to do his own research? Incurable optimist, aren’t you? On behalf of other posters who might be interested in the factual questions fished out of the insinuations of the OP, I googled on “European Union aid Palestinian Authority” and found the following information: - A [20 June 2002 article](http://europa.eu.int/comm/external_relations/gaza/news/ip02_906.htm) states that EU assistance to the PA is funded by the Middle East Peace Process budgetary line, whose funding is determined by the European Parliament Committees on Foreign Affairs and Budgets. - The aforesaid Committees on 20 June voted to continue aid to the PA following a presentation by the European Commissioner for External Relations Chris Patten on an inquiry into Israeli and other allegations of misuse of EU PA assistance funds, carried out jointly with the International Monetary Fund with the assistance of the PA, the Israeli government, and the IDF. - Commissioner Patten [stated](http://europa.eu.int/comm/external_relations/news/patten/sp02_293.htm), “After scrupulous examination of all the allegations that have been made, I can report to you today that there is no evidence for EU funds used for other purposes than those agreed. There is no reason to state that EU money has financed terrorism or bought weapons”. - The membership of the European Parliament Committees on Foreign Affairs and Budgets can be found here: [Foreign Affairs](http://www.europarl.eu.int/committees/afet_home.htm); [Budgets](http://www.europarl.eu.int/committees/budg_home.htm). - Members of the European Parliament are elected as representatives of their respective nations by direct universal suffrage every five years. - The decisions, positions and proceedings of the EP are published in the _Official Journal of the European Communities._ There you go, **december** ; if you seriously wish to take up the investigation of EU PA assistance where the Commission for External Relations and IMF left it, this should give you plenty of material to work on. Judging on past performance, though, I suspect that you’re going to prefer sitting around this thread and continuing to chew over inadequately supported accusations and speculations, which is certainly much less work than actually digging up any facts. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/12 "2002-08-13T17:38:37Z")
and please to support the statement that the “ONLY” way for him to have amassed any wealth is for him to have stolen it. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/13 "2002-08-13T17:43:01Z")
I should point out that I’m referring to corruption in the European _Commission_ (the civil service), not the entire EU. The entire European Commission ‘resigned’ (i.e. was sacked) in 1999 after corruption scandals. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk\_politics/253139.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/253139.stm) [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/300775.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/300775.stm) [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/264187.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/264187.stm) [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/297575.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/297575.stm) It’s been trying to clean up its act ever since. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/14 "2002-08-13T17:47:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > Um, your sole source for this statement is a single sentence in an article in the Israeli newspaper Ha’Aretz, which attributes it only to one “IDF Intelligence Chief Major General Aharon Ze’evi” without providing any information whatsoever as to what Ze’evi’s “estimate” is based on. Ah come on **Kimstu** the Israeli’s would never try to produce stuff that would be damning to the Palestinian leader without knowing it was true. Then again they might [Israel’s black propaganda bid falters as documents reveal an impotent leader not a terrorist mastermind](http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=293162) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/15 "2002-08-13T18:22:29Z")
**jjimm** and **Kimstu** , thanks for the cites. Note that Patten’s statements, which **Kimstu** quoted, appear exaggerated. > [@](#): > > Commissioner Patten stated, “After scrupulous examination of all the allegations that have been made, I can report to you today that there is no evidence for EU funds used for other purposes than those agreed. There is no reason to state that EU money has financed terrorism or bought weapons”. Apparently EU funds _were_ “used for other purposes than those agreed,” unless one agreed purpose was for Arafat to take a pot of money for himself. (Actually, this may be possible. Some time ago, I recall some speaker mentioning that all sides knew that Arafat embezzled relief money; it was an accepted part of the game.) It’s also exaggerated to say, “there’s no evidence…that EU money has financed terrorism or bought weapons.” It was reported that the Israelis found evidence when they took over Arafat’s headquarters. Perhaps the evidence was less than convincing or perhaps it was refuted, but there was _some_ evidence, not _no_ evidence. Getting back to the OP. In general, when EU Commissioner Patten provides a dubious excuse for some EU action, what recourse does the European public have? Who can call him on this? Who has the power to investigate? Who has the desire to investigate? > [@](#): > > **wring** > and please to support the statement that the “ONLY” way for him to have amassed any wealth is for him to have stolen it. How else could he have amassed this amount of wealth? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/16 "2002-08-13T18:29:20Z")
**december** , let’s just address what you’ve said here: "Apparently EU funds were “used for other purposes than those agreed, unless one agreed purpose was for Arafat to take a pot of money for himself”. You’ve done the following here: 1. Failed to acknowledge that the allegation is not backed up by evidence. 2. Failed to acknowledge that PA funding is from several sources. “It was reported that the Israelis found evidence when they took over Arafat’s headquarters.” But not proven. “Commissioner Patten provides a dubious excuse for some EU action” I BEG your pardon? Dubious excuse because…? Because…? Because you disagree with it, perhaps? The European Parliament can make its own decisions based on his recommendations. They did. BTW, Chris Patten is a very, very scrupulous man, an even-handed analyst, and _gasp_ a Conservative. Though perhaps from where you’re standing, he might appear to be next to Castro. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/17 "2002-08-13T18:31:30Z")
how else? 1. Wealthy Arab donations? 2. Inheritance? 3. Employment related? all are certainly possible, since you’ve not demonstrated that he’s not paid for his current position, doesn’t have wealthy supporters or parents etc. and “refuted evidence” **is not evidence**. If I claim that you’re really the poster **Wildest Bill** , and my evidence is demonstrated to be false, I cannot then continue to claim that I have evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/18 "2002-08-13T18:56:13Z")
Hmmm…Okay here is a background on Arafat and the PLO’s financial accumulations over the years. While absolutely filthy ( if verified - I don’t really doubt any of it though ), it doesn’t seem like all, much, or any of it has to necessarily have come from an EU source ( I’d lay odds he has embezzled from them - but probably not $1 billion dollars ). Quite the contrary Arafat and the PlO were getting rich for years, including by robbing banks, sucking up Arab donations and running construction companies. I’ll also note that Arafat was a successful businessman before becoming chairman of the PLO and he is the scion of one the two wealthiest and most powerful Arab families in Jerusalem ( Sari Nusseibeh hails from the other one ): [http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/medigest/jul98/backgrnd.html](http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/medigest/jul98/backgrnd.html) So there you go - An alternative source for all, much or a big chunk of his lucre. Note that even mass embezzling from the EU wouldn’t prove or necessarily even strongly imply EU complicity. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/19 "2002-08-13T19:43:15Z")
The US provides training for the police forces of the Palestinian Authority. If these forces do something wrong, is the US directly responsible? ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711/20 "2002-08-13T21:49:50Z")
The EU functions as follows (how many times do I have to post this shit?¿?) The 15 member states are democratic countries. Their people elect a parliament. The parliament appoints a representative to the Council of the European Union, (that is the EU government). The citizens of Europe elect representatives to the EU parliament, which, like any parliament is there to ensure that due process and democratic rule prevails in the Council, and cooperates with the Council in the process of legislation of policy. The EU Commission and its commissioners work for the government preparing papers and doing the same shit Ari Fleischer does - speak to the press. THE FUCKING COMMISSION AND COMMISSIONERS ARE PUBLIC SERVANTS WITHOUT ANY GODDAMNED POWER. Like any public servants they can abuse their position. They usually get fired and castigated and sometimes put on trial if they do. We don’t know that the EU Council and Parliament are corrupt in any other way that the House, the Senate and the Administration… Enron anyone? As for the whole other discussion… Yeah… Sparc [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-we-tell-whether-the-european-union-is-corrupt/123711.md?page=2)