# How Can You Be Pro-Life but not Pro-War or Pro-Death Penalty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207 "2006-06-18T21:46:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ululate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/59ef9b/32.png) [@ululate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ululate)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/21 "2006-06-19T13:05:07Z")
[QUOTE=DianaG] All (human) life is sacred, or none is. Anyone who maintains that life is sacred in some situations but not others is essentially saying that they are qualified to judge who is and isn’t fit to live. Must be nice to be omniscient. [/QUOTE] I’ll ask again: I see nothing wrong with punishing a kidnapper by locking him in a small room, and I’m also in favor of forcing armed robbers to pay fines. Does that likewise invite your scorn? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/22 "2006-06-19T13:11:49Z")
It’s different from killing them, isn’t it? I’m a bit unclear on the question. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/23 "2006-06-19T13:13:09Z")
[QUOTE=DianaG] But being conceived (and born and raised) in the wrong \*place \* **is**? [/quote] /me sings “If I only had a brain”. > [@DianaG](#): > > All (human) life is sacred, or none is. Anyone who maintains that life is sacred in some situations but not others is essentially saying that they are qualified to judge who is and isn’t fit to live. Must be nice to be omniscient. Rubbish. If I happen to be in possession of a gun and someone’s about to split me from neck to crotch with a double-handed axe, my willingness to shoot him has no more to do with “omniscience” than would my unwillingness to use that same gun to shoot an innocent passer by. When come back, bring argument. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/24 "2006-06-19T13:19:49Z")
Immediate self-defense is a gimme, and has nothing to do with war or the death penalty, so do try to stay on topic. FTR, I’m \*not \* a believer in the sanctity of life. I’m just pointing out that the word “sacred” actually means something, and anyone who claims to believe that life is sacred should be against war in general, and the death penalty in any instance. ---
**Author:** ![ululate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/59ef9b/32.png) [@ululate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ululate)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/25 "2006-06-19T13:20:21Z")
[QUOTE=DianaG] It’s different from killing them, isn’t it? [/QUOTE] Well, yes and no. Kidnapping is wrong. You don’t want to be kidnapped. You endorse laws that criminalize kidnapping. You’d go so far as to say you have the right to not get kidnapped. And what do you think we should do with a kidnapper? Use force, or the threat of force, to lock him in a small room. Armed robbery is wrong. You don’t want to be robbed at gunpoint. You endorse laws that criminalize armed robbery. You’d go so far as to say you have the right to not get robbed at gunpoint. And what do you think we should do with an armed robber? Well, using armed men to make him pay a fine. Murder is wrong. You don’t want to be murdered. You endorse laws that criminalize murder. You’d go so far as to say you have the right not to get murdered. And what do you think we should do with a murderer? “Execute him” would seem to parallel the other two answers. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/26 "2006-06-19T13:29:59Z")
[QUOTE=DianaG] But being conceived (and born and raised) in the wrong \*place \* **is**? All (human) life is sacred, or none is. Anyone who maintains that life is sacred in some situations but not others is essentially saying that they are qualified to judge who is and isn’t fit to live. Must be nice to be omniscient. [/QUOTE] I think the point being made and that was made in the other thread, was that it’s not hypocritical to believe a war is necessary for self defense and abortion is wrong. Should we have not gone into WWII because civilians might be killed? If my wife decides not to have an abortion but kills the man who breaks into our house and threatens her, does she hold life less sacred? Concerning the war in Iraq I feel that it is completely unjustified and is not part of fighting a war against global terror. It’s not self defense to invade a country that has not attacked you, but that’s another argument. If I consider all life sacred I still have to choose when faced with a deadly threat to me or my loved ones. Do I defend them and possibly have to kill in the process or do I allow them or myself to be killed. I’m not a hypocrite if I choose to defend myself. If people truly see embryos as people then stem cell research becomes sacrificing some people to benefit. I think pro life folks might even see that as acceptable in some cases of sacrificing for the greater good. A war fought in self defense might be that. They just don’t see it as acceptable in the war against disease. I don’t agree but I understand the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/27 "2006-06-19T13:33:57Z")
[QUOTE=DianaG] Immediate self-defense is a gimme, and has nothing to do with war or the death penalty, so do try to stay on topic. [/quote] If it’s “on topic” you want, you shouldn’t have started blethering on about omniscience. Very kind of you to grant immediate self-defence, but you’re still demonstrating a willingness to blur the definition of “sacred”; you’re just, as it were, arguing about the price. > [@DianaG](#): > > FTR, I’m \*not \* a believer in the sanctity of life. I’m just pointing out that the word “sacred” actually means something, and anyone who claims to believe that life is sacred should be against war in general, and the death penalty in any instance. And I am glad that I live in a country with no DP, and I believe the less war the better. I maintain however that it is possible to believe _you should only be put to death if you did something wrong_ and _it’s not wrong to be conceived_. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/28 "2006-06-19T13:38:24Z")
[QUOTE=DianaG] Immediate self-defense is a gimme, and has nothing to do with war or the death penalty, so do try to stay on topic. FTR, I’m \*not \* a believer in the sanctity of life. I’m just pointing out that the word “sacred” actually means something, and anyone who claims to believe that life is sacred should be against war in general, and the death penalty in any instance. [/QUOTE] I agree with you here. I can’t understand anyone who is pro life supporting this particular war. It truly boggles my mind. I do think that anyone who speaks of the sacredness of life should see war as the last possible choice. Only if we are very sure that we or someone we have sworn to protect is unjustly attacked. There’s no doubt in my mind that there are plenty of hypocrites about this issue. When Jerry Falwell says “Blow them all away in the name of the Lord” I want to scream. For the sake of argument though I understand how it’s possible to support a war and still be pro life. If we went to war to prevent genocide would that be pro life? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/29 "2006-06-19T14:04:03Z")
@ **cosmosdan** : Ditto to that on all points. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/30 "2006-06-19T14:53:01Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] No, it’s the fact that the church is intolerant, right wing and infested with pedophiles and their apologists. Vietnam was a looong time ago. [/QUOTE] Well, the Catholic Church was a pretty vocal opponent of the Iraq war. Here’s the transcript of an NPR interview with John Allen (reporter for the National Catholic Reporter), on actions taken by the Catholic Church to stop the war from happening: [http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/transcripts/2003/feb/030211.edwards.html](http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/transcripts/2003/feb/030211.edwards.html) From the transcript: > [@](#): > > EDWARDS: Of course, the pope opposes war and urges peaceful settlements of conflicts all around the world. Is this case any different? > > Mr. ALLEN: I think it is. I think it’s different for a couple of reasons. One is the unusual level of direct diplomatic involvement by the pope. I mean, as you say, he has dispatched a special ambassador. He is going to be receiving Hussein’s number two official. We understand that there is a possibility he may be receiving Kofi Annan from the United Nations next week, and there has been this steady drumbeat of papal commentary. Rarely does a day go by when the pope does not quite vocally speak against this war, and so he has sort of created a buzz, if you will, around sort of papal diplomatic activity. > > I think the other thing is the remarkably blunt language that Vatican officials have been using to criticize American policy and the prospect of a war in Iraq. I mean, you have Archbishop Renato Martino, who is the pope’s point person on issues of justice and peace, who has openly speculated that the United States may be acting on the basis of its oil interests and has strongly suggested that the consequences of any attack on Iraq would be disastrous for the Middle East and for the Western relationship with Islam. The pope’s foreign minister, a Frenchman by the name of Jean-Louis Tauran, has been quoting an Arab foreign minister to the effect that a war in Iraq would open the gates of hell. And of course, the Vatican, they don’t use that kind of language casually. So I think there is a full-court diplomatic press under way from the Vatican on the war that is unusual. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/31 "2006-06-19T15:02:16Z")
Also, as per your “infested with pedophiles” comment, in most of the cases where the childhood sexual abuse accusations recently came to light, the claim is that that most of the alledged sexual abuse took place in the 1960s and 70s. So if the Catholic Church was ever “infested with pedophiles”, it was during the time period they protested the Vietnam War. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/32 "2006-06-19T15:12:54Z")
[QUOTE=treis] And what of the innocent bystanders that get killed in war? [/QUOTE] I may feel, as the killing of innocents is accidental, that their killing is also unavoidable. [QUOTE=monavis] I hope is a appropiate place to say this, but would you say if you thought someone was going to kill you one day,could you then kill that person right away? To me that is what the war in Iraq is, and why I believe it was immoral to go there. We were not really threatened. Many fetus’s,innocent people were killed and being killed. Little is said about Aphganistan; there is little reported about that. [/QUOTE] Well, that’s the tricky thing, isn’t it; evaluating how likely it is that person (or country) is going to kill you. Obviously if they’re you’re best friends, it’s unlikely, and if they’re holding a gun to your head demanding money it’s pretty clear it’s going to happen. Anything between that is up to the evaluator. > [@](#): > > Also did you consider the woman’s right to self defense, if her pregnency was against her will or would cause her physical ,emotional or suffer financial hardships that could make it hard to support ,feed and take care of her health(and other children she may have)? I’d like to point out these aren’t actually my viewpoints, just viewpoints under which all those different views would be consistent. There are many that would consider any hardship that woman has to go through to be minor (or at the least lesser) compared to the alternative; the destruction of life. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/33 "2006-06-19T15:14:00Z")
[QUOTE=blinkingblinking] You cannot get away with this. You cannot make a claim like the ‘Catholic church being infested with pedophiles’, without some evidence. Are you talking about the clergy or the 1.1 billon catholics around the world? According to this piece [http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse\_in\_social\_context.htm#\_ednref4](http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm#_ednref4) “Less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.” [/QUOTE] First, I said “Pedophiles and their apologists”. That includes the pedophiles, those who ignored or covered up what they did, and those who tried to downpedal the scandal when it broke. That includes much of the Church, including the Pope. As well, data on this from something called [catholicleague.org](http://catholicleague.org) can be safely dismissed as biased; would you trust data from [shootthepope.org](http://shootthepope.org) ? I mean : > [@](#): > > Is the Catholic League Necessary? > Absolutely. Harvard professor Arthur Schlesinger, Sr. once observed that prejudice against the Catholic Church was “the deepest bias in the history of the American people.” Yale professor Peter Viereck commented that “Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.” > > And today’s brand of anti-Catholicism is more virulent and more pervasive than ever before in American history. While it is true that Catholics as individuals have made progress in securing their rights, the degree of hostility exhibited against the Catholic Church is appalling. Quite simply, Catholic bashing has become a staple of American society. Typical Christian persecution complex; unless everyone else is their slave, they regard themselves as persecuted. [QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Well, the Catholic Church was a pretty vocal opponent of the Iraq war. [/QUOTE] Did the threaten to excommunicate people over it, or the death penalty, like they do abortion ? Nope, last I heard. Did they oppose Bush’s rellection, or push hard for him ? The latter. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/34 "2006-06-19T15:16:30Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] There are many that would consider any hardship that woman has to go through to be minor (or at the least lesser) compared to the alternative; the destruction of life. [/QUOTE] Misogynists, in other words. “Let the bitch suffer !” ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/35 "2006-06-19T15:19:17Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Misogynists, in other words. “Let the bitch suffer !” [/QUOTE] Uhm, what? What haven’t I made clear? For them, life is the important thing; all else pales in comparison. It’s not a case of denigrating the right of women to lead happy lives, it’s a case of putting life itself way, way higer above that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/36 "2006-06-19T15:23:10Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Uhm, what? What haven’t I made clear? For them, life is the important thing; all else pales in comparison. It’s not a case of denigrating the right of women to lead happy lives, it’s a case of putting life itself way, way higer above that. [/QUOTE] In other words, women have less value than a few cells. Less than a man, less than a dog, less than a rat, less than a spot of mold on the wall. Misogyny. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/37 "2006-06-19T15:24:08Z")
In general, I am very pro-life. I do not believe that abortion should be so easy to get. I would advocate a policy that allowed abortion only when the life of the mother or child was in danger. Most unwanted pregnancies could be avoided simply by choosing not to have sex. (before anyone starts in about rape,incest etc…make note that I said most and in general. I don’t want to argue semantics.) I am also pro-death penalty. The crimes I would view as punishable by DP are murder, rape and kidnapping. People that commit these acts have proved themselves to be a danger to society and have given up their right to be part of the human race. That being said, I realize that our current justice system does an imperfect job and DP should be reserved for cases with no question of guilt. I am anti-war. Partially by nature, I’m a very peaceful person. Partially by religion, I am a wiccan and our first rule is do no harm. I do understand that sometimes war is the last option, but it should always be used as such and only undertaken when all other options are exahausted. Hope that answers the OP as to why someone can hold those views that you view as being opposites. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/38 "2006-06-19T15:31:02Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] In other words, women have less value than a few cells. Less than a man, less than a dog, less than a rat, less than a spot of mold on the wall. Misogyny. [/QUOTE] Not so. You’re putting your viewpoint onto them. Regardless of what you, or I, think, and even regardless of what the truth is, they truly believe those few cells are a human life, and so on par with all humans. This is not mysogynistic. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/39 "2006-06-19T15:31:07Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] In other words, women have less value than a few cells. Less than a man, less than a dog, less than a rat, less than a spot of mold on the wall. Misogyny. [/QUOTE] Bollocks. Complete and utter bollocks. Blethering on about “value” to fudge away from the point that a woman’s _right_ to this, that and the other thing might not necessarily mean that she had the _right_ to take away the life from the thing inside her. Not for the sake of the cells itself but for what it would become. It’s not the fact that it’s currently a few cells but the fact that it will become a helpless human being inconveniently dependent upon her that causes her to want to be rid of it. Spot of mold on the wall indeed! If pro-lifers really though that “women have less value than… a rat” they would kill women to preserve the life of rats. What incomparable tripe you spout. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/40 "2006-06-19T15:49:41Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Not so. You’re putting your viewpoint onto them. Regardless of what you, or I, think, and even regardless of what the truth is, they truly believe those few cells are a human life, and so on par with all humans. This is not mysogynistic. [/QUOTE] That’s outright misanthropic; if a few cells are human, then a human life is worth no more than a few cells. No wonder so many are pro war; to someone like that, killing thousands of people is no different than tossing a Petri dish into a fire. [QUOTE=Malacandra] Bollocks. Complete and utter bollocks. Blethering on about “value” to fudge away from the point that a woman’s _right_ to this, that and the other thing might not necessarily mean that she had the _right_ to take away the life from the thing inside her. [/quote] _Thing_ is the right word; they value her less than a _thing_. [QUOTE=Malacandra] If pro-lifers really though that “women have less value than… a rat” they would kill women to preserve the life of rats. What incomparable tripe you spout. [/QUOTE] They probably would, if they cared about rats. Since when have “pro-lifers” shown anything but utter contempt for the lives and health of women ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207.md?page=3)