# How Can You Be Pro-Life but not Pro-War or Pro-Death Penalty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207 "2006-06-18T21:46:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/41 "2006-06-19T15:54:26Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] That’s outright misanthropic; if a few cells are human, then a human life is worth no more than a few cells. No wonder so many are pro war; to someone like that, killing thousands of people is no different than tossing a Petri dish into a fire. [/QUOTE] You’re going the wrong way. Instead of killing thousands of people being _that easy_, for them it’s _that hard_. Seriously, try and think outside your own viewpoint, mmkay? For you it is easy to kill a fetus or embryo; for them it is not. Your analogy is flawed. ---
**Author:** ![ululate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/59ef9b/32.png) [@ululate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ululate)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/42 "2006-06-19T15:58:46Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] They probably would, if they cared about rats. [/QUOTE] So you were lying when you said a woman is valued as “less than a rat”. Were you also lying about them being valued “less than a dog”? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/43 "2006-06-19T16:10:54Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] You’re going the wrong way. Instead of killing thousands of people being _that easy_, for them it’s _that hard_. Seriously, try and think outside your own viewpoint, mmkay? For you it is easy to kill a fetus or embryo; for them it is not. Your analogy is flawed. [/QUOTE] Please; they just want to use the fetus as a weapon to punish the woman, and as a victim once it’s born. [QUOTE=ululate] So you were lying when you said a woman is valued as “less than a rat”. Were you also lying about them being valued “less than a dog”? [/QUOTE] What are you babbling about ? They don’t care about rats; they hate women; that’s what “misogynist” means. ---
**Author:** ![ululate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/59ef9b/32.png) [@ululate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ululate)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/44 "2006-06-19T16:22:46Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] What are you babbling about ? [/QUOTE] It’s really very simple. First you said that, in this viewpoint, women are valued as less than a rat. When asked by Malacandra if this means such people would kill a woman to save a rat, your answer was that, no, they wouldn’t, because they don’t care about rats. Which means that women are valued more highly than rats. That’s, like, the opposite of babbling; it’s quite straightforward. In the same vein, I’ll now ask you whether such people would kill a woman to save a dog. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/45 "2006-06-19T17:01:16Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Please; they just want to use the fetus as a weapon to punish the woman, and as a victim once it’s born. [/QUOTE] Well, let’s see; my explanation has the backing of logic. Your explanation resorts to an dislike based on emotions. I’m happy to leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/46 "2006-06-19T17:32:13Z")
[QUOTE=ululate] It’s really very simple. First you said that, in this viewpoint, women are valued as less than a rat. When asked by Malacandra if this means such people would kill a woman to save a rat, your answer was that, no, they wouldn’t, because they don’t care about rats. Which means that women are valued more highly than rats. [/quote] As I just said, that’s only true if I thought they had a positive values for women; they don’t. [QUOTE=ululate] That’s, like, the opposite of babbling; it’s quite straightforward. In the same vein, I’ll now ask you whether such people would kill a woman to save a dog. [/QUOTE] Of course; they want women to die because they are women. ---
**Author:** ![ululate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/59ef9b/32.png) [@ululate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ululate)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/47 "2006-06-19T17:39:59Z")
Cite? Find me someone who, though against abortion, would kill a woman to save a dog. (In my experience, most such folks will even go so far as to say that abortion is permissible to save the life of the mother – but never mind that now; find me all these people who you claim would kill women to save dogs, but not dogs to save women.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/48 "2006-06-19T18:28:38Z")
[QUOTE=ululate] Cite? Find me someone who, though against abortion, would kill a woman to save a dog. (In my experience, most such folks will even go so far as to say that abortion is permissible to save the life of the mother – but never mind that now; find me all these people who you claim would kill women to save dogs, but not dogs to save women.) [/QUOTE] I already mentioned the Mexico City Policy; that’s killed quite a few women, and saved no one at all. I’m sure they’d throw in a dog or two. Or not; the dog thing is a red herring, and you know it. The _point_ is that the anti-abortion movement is about hostility to women and children; not “saving babies” or anything else. ---
**Author:** ![ululate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/59ef9b/32.png) [@ululate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ululate)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/49 "2006-06-19T18:37:55Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Or not; the dog thing is a red herring, and you know it. [/QUOTE] The dog thing is a red herring that _ **you brought up** _. Here, watch, I’ll now bring something up. You may remember what I was just saying about folks who are opposed to abortion except when necessary to save the life of the mother; how does that fit into your categorizations? These are people who say that the woman is more important than the unborn child; if one of them has to die, then, yes, they’d rather it was the unborn child. But they also say that, otherwise, the woman has to carry the baby to term otherwise. They value the life of the woman over the life of the baby, but not the freedom of the woman over the freedom of the baby. Explain. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/50 "2006-06-19T18:51:15Z")
[QUOTE=ululate] You may remember what I was just saying about folks who are opposed to abortion except when necessary to save the life of the mother; how does that fit into your categorizations? These are people who say that the woman is more important than the unborn child; if one of them has to die, then, yes, they’d rather it was the unborn child. But they also say that, otherwise, the woman has to carry the baby to term otherwise. They value the life of the woman over the life of the baby, but not the freedom of the woman over the freedom of the baby. Explain. [/QUOTE] Easy; I don’t believe them. They know that most people here won’t put up with condemning _American_ women to death, so they lie and say it’s OK to get an abortion to save her life. If they could, they’d chain every pregnant woman to a bed to make sure she didn’t get an abortion, and if she died they’d gloat over the corpse. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/51 "2006-06-19T19:23:03Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Easy; I don’t believe them. They know that most people here won’t put up with condemning _American_ women to death, so they lie and say it’s OK to get an abortion to save her life. If they could, they’d chain every pregnant woman to a bed to make sure she didn’t get an abortion, and if she died they’d gloat over the corpse. [/QUOTE] Could you kindly give us a cite that shows how many american women die as a result of pregnancy and how that corrolates to the number of abortions performed. If you’re going to argue this line of, I hesitate to call it reasoning, thought please give us something to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![blinkingblinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blinkingblinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkingblinking)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/52 "2006-06-19T21:22:53Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] First, I said “Pedophiles and their apologists”. That includes the pedophiles, those who ignored or covered up what they did, and those who tried to downpedal the scandal when it broke. That includes much of the Church, including the Pope. As well, data on this from something called [catholicleague.org](http://catholicleague.org) can be safely dismissed as biased; would you trust data from [shootthepope.org](http://shootthepope.org) ? I mean : . [/QUOTE] Did you actually read the page I cited? Or you just ‘safely dismissed it as biased’ ? I actually provided some evidence. Where is yours? Obviously I know that cite is biased. You seem to be under the mistaken belief that I am catholic. I am not. I ask again. Where is your evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/53 "2006-06-19T21:46:48Z")
I believe [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7502746#post7502746) may be a better venue for continued discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/54 "2006-06-19T21:50:30Z")
[QUOTE=blinkingblinking] Did you actually read the page I cited? Or you just ‘safely dismissed it as biased’ ? [/quote] I read the home page, saw it was a Catholic apologist site, and dismissed it. [QUOTE=blinkingblinking] I ask again. Where is your evidence? [/QUOTE] Many millions of dollars worth of successful lawsuits. [QUOTE=Antinor01] Could you kindly give us a cite that shows how many american women die as a result of pregnancy and how that corrolates to the number of abortions performed. [/QUOTE] I _said_ that the public wouldn’t stand for American women dying; that’s what they aren’t. I’m not going to provide a cite for something I didn’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/55 "2006-06-19T21:52:20Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] I believe [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7502746#post7502746) may be a better venue for continued discussion. [/QUOTE] Sorry; I don’t bother to attend my own bashings. It accomplishes nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/56 "2006-06-19T21:56:45Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Sorry; I don’t bother to attend my own bashings. It accomplishes nothing. [/QUOTE] Virtually every thread you participate in ends up with as one of your bashings. You may as well go to the Pit and try to learn something from it this time. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/57 "2006-06-19T22:39:58Z")
Der Trihs, please provide evidence of any anti-abortion activists who killed a woman to save a dog. Or, perhaps you could rephrase your obviously stupid and ill-considered rant earlier. Or, shut up when the grownups are talking. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/58 "2006-06-19T23:18:48Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Der Trihs, please provide evidence of any anti-abortion activists who killed a woman to save a dog. Or, perhaps you could rephrase your obviously stupid and ill-considered rant earlier. Or, shut up when the grownups are talking. [/QUOTE] Or you could stop whining about a rhetorical device and argue about what I was and am saying; that most anti-abortion activists hate women. Plus, personal insults aren’t allowed here. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/59 "2006-06-19T23:26:56Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Or you could stop whining about a rhetorical device and argue about what I was and am saying; that most anti-abortion activists hate women. Plus, personal insults aren’t allowed here. [/QUOTE] You have yet to demonstrate that any, let alone most people who are opposed to abortion hate women. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/60 "2006-06-19T23:28:01Z")
I didn’t insult you, I said your rant was obviously stupid and ill-considered. And claiming that anti-abortion activists would kill a woman to save a dog is, well, obviously stupid and ill-considered. Yeah, NOW it’s a rhetorical device. Next time I make an obviously stupid and ill-considered statment, that’s the excuse I’m gonna pull out. Rhetorical device. Yep, gonna totally go with that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207.md?page=4)