# How Can You Be Pro-Life but not Pro-War or Pro-Death Penalty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207 "2006-06-18T21:46:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![kevegan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e68b1a/32.png) [@kevegan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevegan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/101 "2006-06-22T06:52:59Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] It’s about forcing women to bear children, which humiliates them and harms them physically. Then, anti-abortion types tend to wash their hands of anyone already born, especially women and children; if the birth doesn’t kill them, they or the resulting children would suffer deprivation or starve to death if the “pro-life” people had their way. As well, they tend to cheerfully dismiss any and all threats to the life and health of the mother. For example, you have the old Mexico City policy, which forced many Third World hospitals to refuse lifesaving treatment of any kind to pregnant women, because if they miscarried we’d accuse them abortion and elimante their funding. You have guys like Randall Terry gloating over the death of women; I think it was in an interview with _Time_ where he said “Every woman who dies is a victory for morality”; back in the 80’s IIRC. Hell, you can go back to Martin Luthor, who when asked about women who died from being forced to have too many children replied “That’s what they’re for.” [/QUOTE] Seems off the bat like extinguishing life by killing a fetus is more about killing than not extinguishing that life. One twisted argument you got for yourself there. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/102 "2006-06-22T15:03:47Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] Conservatives, or at least the particular ones we’re talking about here, place a high value on personal responsibility, behaving yourself, looking out for Number One, and facing the consequences of your actions. Out of this mindset grows the attitude that certain criminals deserve to be put to death and shouldn’t be allowed to escape their just punishment; that if you mess up and become pregnant you shouldn’t be allowed to weasel your way out of your responsibility via abortion; and that we have the right to protect ourselves and punish any country that messes with us. [/QUOTE] Well, y’see, you’ve just made my point. Conservatives believe that death is the correct consequence for certain crimes. I believe state-administered death is an inappropriate consequence for any crime. Conservatives believe forced childbirth is an appropriate consequence for sexual intercourse. I believe childbirth is a matter of choice, not a consequence to be endured because the birth control didn’t work. Conservatives believe blowing Iraq back into the stone age is appropriate … well, God alone knows why they think that’s appropriate, because Iraq certainly didn’t “mess with us,” so I can’t understand why all of those people deserved to be punished. I, too, place a high value on taking personal responsibility. Most liberals do. But we also understand that our fellow humans, flawed as they are, are still humans, not dogs to be “put down” because they bit somebody or whelped because they jumped the fence. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/103 "2006-06-22T15:11:28Z")
[QUOTE=diggleblop] lol, you can’t be serious. Women’s bodies are designed to carry children during pregnancy, hence hips and fatty tissue. I stopped reading anything you wrote after you said that. You have no valid points at all. [/QUOTE] What Der Trihs meant was not that childbirth per se humiliates women and causes them harm, but rather forcing them to bear children when it endangers their health or when they are pregnant from incest or other sexual assault. I still say it all gets back to religion. For the overwhelming majority of Americans, right and wrong are determined by an external set of regulations handed down by God, not by an internal moral code that is intrinsically valuable. Religious people cannot even conceptualize moral values absent an external God to enforce them. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/104 "2006-06-22T15:24:47Z")
> [@diggleblop](#): > > lol, you can’t be serious. Women’s bodies are designed to carry children during pregnancy, hence hips and fatty tissue. I stopped reading anything you wrote after you said that. You have no valid points at all. Whereas you appear to have \*\*no \*\* point, valid or otherwise. Yes, women’s bodies are designed to bear children. They are also (like all human bodies) designed to walk, run, climb, jump, carry, and throw. That doesn’t mean that no harm can come to a body doing these things. All of which is far afield of the point of this thread anyway. Do you have anything to add to the discussion at hand? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/105 "2006-06-22T17:01:59Z")
[QUOTE=jeffrice] Well, y’see, you’ve just made my point. [/QUOTE] In case it wasn’t clear, I wasn’t arguing in favor of the viewpoint I was describing, just showing how it could consistently encompass “pro-life, pro-war, and pro-death penalty” opinions. (And in so doing I was kinda going along with you, though not completely.) > [@](#): > > Conservatives believe… I don’t think it’s fair to claim that _all_ conservatives believe these things, but they are more characteristic of the conservative point(s) of view than of the liberal. > [@](#): > > But we also understand that our fellow humans, flawed as they are, are still humans, not dogs to be “put down” because they bit somebody or whelped because they jumped the fence. A conservative would respond to this by saying that it is because our fellow humans are humans and not dogs that they are expected to anticipate the consequences of their actions, have a moral sense, and be held responsible for themselves. (And then a liberal might respond to _that_ by pointing out that the issue is how we treat people when they do make mistakes. And then…) > [@](#): > > I still say it all gets back to religion. For the overwhelming majority of Americans, right and wrong are determined by an external set of regulations handed down by God, not by an internal moral code that is intrinsically valuable. Religious people cannot even conceptualize moral values absent an external God to enforce them. Do you have any support for this? I’ve also heard the opposite claim: that religious people who are good and decent would still be basically good and decent without religion, just because it’s their nature. Anyway, I’m not at all sure it’s religion that’s the root cause. I think it’s equally likely that a judgmental attitude (or lack thereof) is the cause of a person adopting a judgmental (or merciful) religion or emphasizing the judgmental (or mericful) elements in one’s religion. Or maybe they both reinforce one another, along with other influences like one’s inherent personality and the attitudes of one’s parents. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/106 "2006-06-23T11:02:15Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] Do you have any support for this? I’ve also heard the opposite claim: that religious people who are good and decent would still be basically good and decent without religion, just because it’s their nature. [/QUOTE] Yes, my support is the conversations I have every single day of my life with people who claim to attend church more than once a month. Is there a study or, even better, a hyperlink I can point you to? Of course not. But try this experiment: If you are a religious person, try spending one entire day being a good person with no religious basis whatsoever. That’s how I spend my life. [QUOTE=] Anyway, I’m not at all sure it’s religion that’s the root cause. I think it’s equally likely that a judgmental attitude (or lack thereof) is the cause of a person adopting a judgmental (or merciful) religion or emphasizing the judgmental (or mericful) elements in one’s religion. Or maybe they both reinforce one another, along with other influences like one’s inherent personality and the attitudes of one’s parents. [/QUOTE] There’s a difference between being judgemental and just being an asshole. I’m just an asshole. I lost my judgementalism when I lost my religious faith. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/107 "2006-06-23T15:25:06Z")
[QUOTE=jeffrice] Yes, my support is the conversations I have every single day of my life with people who claim to attend church more than once a month. Is there a study or, even better, a hyperlink I can point you to? Of course not. [/QUOTE] Actually, I do remember seeing the occasional study claiming that religious people are less moral than the non religious; less honest, less charitable and so on. That’s probably why you seldom see or hear of such studies. I can’t find a link to that, but here’s one to a story about a study claiming it’s bad for society : [Link](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html) > [@](#): > > Societies worse off ‘when they have God on their side’ > By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent > > RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today. > > According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems. > > The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2006, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/108 "2006-06-24T11:11:48Z")
[QUOTE=Brain Wreck] There are a couple of rationales and they’re both pretty simple: 1. Killing people is wrong in any case, but abortion isn’t really killing. 2. Killing people is wrong except when God says it’s allowable. The bible says life begins at conception, therefore abortion is killing. The bible says “an eye for an eye”, therefore it’s OK to execute killers. The bible says… err… something about blowing up commies and terrorists, so it’s OK to blow up commies and terrorists. I forget the exact chapter and verse right this minute but my pastor knows. Obviously I have portrayed the second one with satire, so you can see where my sympathies sit. I believe the second is clearly fallacy in the case of execution and war, because the given biblical justifications are Old Testament works, and supposedly with the arrival of Jesus in the New Testament, revenge and execution and war and killing are no longer valid. So one would think a true Christian, as in a follower of Christ and a believer in the New Testament, would oppose abortion, execution, and war. However, a number of Christians clearly don’t hold this position; therefore I have to say that they find the bible a convenient way to morally justify certain forms of social control, revenge, and empire-building while simultaneously nullifying any guilt associated with these practices. [/QUOTE] Where does the Bible say life began at conception? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2006, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/109 "2006-06-25T03:08:50Z")
[QUOTE=yelimS] anti-DV legislation? I’m not saying you shouldn’t intervene with a murder, just don’t make yourself a murderer doing it. But at least as I view christianity, or rather the consequences of god being omniyouknowtherest, it’s not so terribly important if things go wrong here and now, as god would fix it in the end. Thus, try to do good, but if you throw god into the mix, the ends DON’T justify the means. This omnigod of yours will make sure everything works out in the end, in the meantime, he’s told you not to kill. If anyone else wants to kill, at the heart of it that’s their buisness, but your duty as a christian might very well be to tell them that they’re wrong, and do all sorts of peaceful things to convince them, or even physically stop them, as long as you’re not hurting anyone. Death penalty and war certainly is hurting people, even if they are “evil”, “deserve it” and serves to reach a greater good. But this greater good is, according to your bible, already being taken care of. I might have expressed myself a bit to harshly, and I really don’t mind christians telling me that abortion is bad, as long as they leave it at that. Although Der Trihs might be taking it a bit to far himself, I do agree that far too many anti-abortionists these days display a lot more hatred than love, and THAT is what I object to as inconsistent. [/QUOTE] If you kill someone in self defense it is neither murder nor a sin. Some Christians are pacifists, and that is an admirable position, but it is not required by the religion. Just like a vow of poverty is admirable, worthy of respect perhaps, but not required by all followers. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2006, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/110 "2006-06-25T12:21:26Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] If you kill someone in self defense it is neither murder nor a sin. Some Christians are pacifists, and that is an admirable position, but it is not required by the religion. Just like a vow of poverty is admirable, worthy of respect perhaps, but not required by all followers. [/QUOTE] Who says it is not a sin? Cite? The choice may be between two things we see as a sin. Killing someone else or allowing ourselves to be killed. ---
**Author:** ![ululate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/59ef9b/32.png) [@ululate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ululate)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2006, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/111 "2006-06-25T14:10:11Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] If you kill someone in self defense it is neither murder nor a sin. Some Christians are pacifists, and that is an admirable position, but it is not required by the religion. [/QUOTE] If I strike you in the side of the head, doesn’t Christianity tell you to forgive me and present the other side of your head for a second blow? Aren’t you then supposed to likewise forgive the next seven times seventy such offenses? ---
**Author:** ![yelimS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/54ee81/32.png) [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/112 "2006-06-25T16:29:28Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] If you kill someone in self defense it is neither murder nor a sin. [/QUOTE] Seconding ululate. Also, allowing for self defence opens up for some pretty tricky definitions. As I’ve said before, if there is an “omnigod”, all you have to do is make yourself worthy of reward, supposedly through good deeds, belief and love. If anyone tries to kill you in the meantime, you shouldn’t have to do anything about it. If you truly deserve paradise, how can god keep you out of it just because someone killed you and you didn’t kill them back? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/113 "2006-06-25T18:57:27Z")
[QUOTE=DianaG] \ That’s true, but in my opinon, it’s somewhat short-sighted. To me, the fundamental question isn’t so much “Does anyone deserve the death penalty?” as “Should the government have the right to kill its citizens?” To me, that answer should be, emphatically, **no**. \ QUOTE] Either way, the answer, to me, is no. Crap, my internet connection was messed up for two days and last I saw this thread, it was at the bottom of the page. I missed a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/114 "2006-06-25T19:00:42Z")
Oh, by the way. We’re horrendously off-topic here. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/115 "2006-06-26T15:34:11Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] Where does the Bible say life began at conception? [/QUOTE] The short answer is that it doesn’t. Some christians use the following to say that it does though… > [@psalms 139:13-16](#): > > You formed my inmost being; > You knit me in my mother’s womb. > I praise you, so wonderfully you made me; > Wonderful are your works! > My very self you knew; > My bones were not hidden from you, > When I was being made in secret, > Fashioned as in the depths of the earth. > Your eyes foresaw my actions; > In your book all are written down; > My days were shaped, before one came to be. > [@isaiah 49:1](#): > > Yahweh called me when I was in the womb, > before my birth he had pronounced my name. > [@Jeremiah 1:5](#): > > Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." There’s one or two others along the same lines, basically talking about God knowing someone before they were born. As to if that means the bible says life begins at conception is debatable but those are what most christians mean when they claim the bible says that ‘life begins at conception’. This does not represent my opinion, was just finding something to answer the question that was given. ---
**Author:** ![ululate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/59ef9b/32.png) [@ululate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ululate)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/116 "2006-06-26T20:37:07Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] There’s one or two others along the same lines, basically talking about God knowing someone before they were born. As to if that means the bible says life begins at conception is debatable but those are what most christians mean when they claim the bible says that 'life begins at conception. [/QUOTE] Then again, though: _“And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.”_ Exodus 21:22-25. The mother qualifies for “eye for an eye” status, but the unborn child doesn’t. Kill the mother and you’re put to death; kill a fetus and, um, there’s maybe a fine, if that’s what the father wants, so long as the judges don’t think he’s asking for too much. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/117 "2006-06-27T12:26:56Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] The short answer is that it doesn’t. Some christians use the following to say that it does though… There’s one or two others along the same lines, basically talking about God knowing someone before they were born. As to if that means the bible says life begins at conception is debatable but those are what most christians mean when they claim the bible says that ‘life begins at conception’. This does not represent my opinion, was just finding something to answer the question that was given. [/QUOTE] Notice it doesn’t say at what stage in the womb, it could well mean at 81/2 or 9 months. Surely it wasn’t yet formed untill it had a brain ,arms,legs and you could see it was a fully formed person. Like the egg though fertile isn’t yet a chicken. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207/118 "2006-06-27T15:41:07Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] Notice it doesn’t say at what stage in the womb, it could well mean at 81/2 or 9 months. Surely it wasn’t yet formed untill it had a brain ,arms,legs and you could see it was a fully formed person. Like the egg though fertile isn’t yet a chicken. Monavis [/QUOTE] I noticed. Really I just pulled those to answer the question of what the bible has to say about it, whether what it has to say is helpful to the conversation I leave to the readers discretion. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-be-pro-life-but-not-pro-war-or-pro-death-penalty/361207.md?page=5)