# How can you compare these two? Are you an idiot? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2002, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187 "2002-12-07T21:02:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/1 "2002-12-07T21:02:04Z")
From a mailing list that I am on for cafepress store owners, regarding some designs that people had made including things like Jesus with his middle finger up: (someone) but I certainly wouldn’t go around making Tshirts singling out those particular groups and degrading them intentionally or unintentionally. (me) Some people may not find the humor offensive. For example, I have nothing against Christians (I was raised Christian) but I have a design that says “I found Jesus – he was behind the couch the whole time!” and I think it’s _funny_. I don’t think it is insulting or blasphemous. Perhaps the people who make those stores feel the same way about their products. And then there are plenty of people who have a serious problem with Christianity, and they have a right to express that as well. (someone) I suppose they do. Just as much as that guy with a problem with the other’s guy face should have the right to walk over to him and rearrange it for him. :rolleyes: (me) Surely you can see the difference between wearing a shirt that expresses your opinions and harming another person. (someone) Surely you know that there are other ways to harm someone than by physically doing it. How come so many marriages end because of emotional abuse? I think you can harm someone other than physically. I was only using that to make a point. (me) In the US we have freedom of speech. We don’t have freedom of assault. And frankly, anyone who is so thin skinned that they are _harmed_ by seeing someone in an offensive shirt should probably see a therapist. (someone) Okay…it’s a shame OpalCat that you feel the need to insult me now for my opinion. Thanks. (me) I wasn’t insulting you. Simply saying that I don’t think that wearing such a shirt is actually _harming_ anyone, and if it is, they have bigger problems. I completely do not understand where this person is coming from. It’s like they are speaking another language to me. Silly me, I’d always thought that most Americans PRIZED our freedom of speech! ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/2 "2002-12-07T21:15:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \*I completely do not understand where this person is coming from. It’s like they are speaking another language to me. Silly me, I’d always thought that most Americans PRIZED our freedom of speech! \*\* I would defend the free speech right of someone to wear a T-shirt saying, “Put the fucking Kikes in the gas ovens!” But, I sure wouldn’t prize the comment or admire the wearer of the shirt. ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/3 "2002-12-07T21:22:07Z")
I thought freedom of speach referred to the right to be able to say/write what you like without fear of persecusion from your government? Not that you’re free to “upset” other people without any comeback? At least, that’s how I understood it. I’m often wrong though. 😉 I don’t find that sort of thing offensive, but then I don’t find it particularly amusing either (although the “behind the couch” thing was quite good). That said I think “someone” might be feeling defensive today, I certainly had to re-read your post previous to the “thanks for the insult” as I didn’t notice any insult. Dunno, is this someone you speak to regularly? Are they always this highly-strung? ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/4 "2002-12-07T21:23:01Z")
I dunno, December, I like Voltaire’s version (even if he was quoting someone else, if I recall correctly) better. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/5 "2002-12-07T21:43:35Z")
It’s the other way around, Spoofe… his biographer was paraphrasing him, and her words are generally taken as a quote. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/6 "2002-12-07T21:45:24Z")
Tir: [[I thought freedom of speach referred to the right to be able to say/write what you like without fear of persecusion from your government?]] yes of course it does. This person was suggesting that people should not have the right to wear such things. What I’ve quoted above is just a small part of the whole exchange… it’s really quite frightening. And no, the “someone” specifically isn’t someone I speak to regularly on on one, but we are both frequent posters to this mailing list. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/7 "2002-12-07T21:45:40Z")
I’ve heard it said that one is not responsible for others’ reaction to one’s behavior. In real life, I think we do bear some responsibility for it; example: don’t wear slutty clothes if you don’t want to be percieved as a slut. The visual of the finger-giving Jesus would shock many folks; but all they have to do to keep from being offended is to turn away. Not the same as being captive in an abusive relationship. > [@](#): > > Not that you’re free to upset other people the rub there is that it is not always possible to predict when you are going to upset others and when you are not. It does look as though _someone_ got up on the wrong side of the bed; although there are those who _must be right_ all of the time; and will manipulate the conversation so that they come out on top. I think _someone_ probably has a degree in Passive Agressive. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/8 "2002-12-07T21:54:42Z")
That same “someone” just posted a link to their newest shirt design: [http://zoom.cafepress.com/3/1709173\_zoom.jpg](http://zoom.cafepress.com/3/1709173_zoom.jpg) And… _cough_ I replied: “Well, it offends me because I’m overweight and also because I’m a pretty serious animal lover and am severely opposed to things like that animal skin rug. I think CafePress should remove it, as it is harming me.” ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/9 "2002-12-07T22:08:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NinetyWt \* > **The visual of the finger-giving Jesus would shock many folks; but all they have to do to keep from being offended is to turn away.** That’s not really a valid excuse/defense, I know if I am offended by something the instant I’ve seen it, turning away doesn’t help because the “damage” has already been done. Umm… I sound like I’m defending “someone”, I’m not, I don’t get easily offended, I’m quite happy for people to express whatever opinion. Hell, wear your T-shirt, but if “someone” rearranges your face don’t be surprised. heh 😉 (I don’t mean “you” personally of course) On Preview - Opal, you Rock! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/10 "2002-12-07T23:05:34Z")
I don’t deny that it’s offensive… but I would never say that someone doesn’t have the right to wear it. …whereas she _would_ ---
**Author:** ![pesch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pesch/32/4925_2.png) [@pesch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pesch)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/11 "2002-12-08T01:54:35Z")
The right to free speech is easily misconstrued. In the Bill of Rights, it states that "Congress shall make no law . . . " abridging the freedom of speech. That’s Congress (later extended to the states). Not Cafepress. Not the SDMB. It’s permissible for people to pressure Cafepress to restrict the designs. It’s permissible to speak against designs they find offensive, just as you can speak in favor of them. And as for the people? Most don’t care. Surveys have shown that they’re willing to let Congress abridge the right to speak and protest. They’d give up most of their rights if they thought it would give them greater security, not realizing that the reason they have greater security is because of those people who speak out. Our Founding Fathers were no fools. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/12 "2002-12-08T02:01:23Z")
No problem, **Tir**. There are many sides to this question, I think. And yes, some folks who _offend_ probably will get the thrashing they deserve (one can only hope). Opal: do ya think that _someone_ caught your subtle jab about “harming” 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/13 "2002-12-08T02:26:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pesch \* > \*\*The right to free speech is easily misconstrued. In the Bill of Rights, it states that "Congress shall make no law . . . " abridging the freedom of speech. > > That’s Congress (later extended to the states). Not Cafepress. Not the SDMB. \*\* Yes, I’m fully aware of that. This woman was saying that people Should. Not. Have. The. Right. To. Wear. that stuff. I addressed this in my second post in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/14 "2002-12-08T02:36:00Z")
We, as citizens of a free country, are free to express our opinions (Magical Sky Pixie comes to mind, which I love, by the way) but we can’t control how others feel about our “free Expression”. Just as we are free to express, others are free to protest. Every time I put a Darwin Fish on my car someone removes it. I take it in stride and replace it. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. I think you need to pick your battles and just let go of those things that are not truly harmful. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/15 "2002-12-08T02:47:47Z")
Yeah, I agree. Mainly though… I was stunned that someone held that opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Spit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spit)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/16 "2002-12-08T03:00:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > \*\*That same “someone” just posted a link to their newest shirt design: [http://zoom.cafepress.com/3/1709173\_zoom.jpg](http://zoom.cafepress.com/3/1709173_zoom.jpg) > > And… _cough_ I replied: > > “Well, it offends me because I’m overweight and also because I’m a pretty serious animal lover and am severely opposed to things like that animal skin rug. I think CafePress should remove it, as it is harming me.” \*\* Way to go Opal. It’s always better to be the bigger person in a situation such as this. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/17 "2002-12-08T18:19:19Z")
hey I was just trying to make a point. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/18 "2002-12-08T20:40:56Z")
I think that freedom of speech on a t-shirt ends when there is a hate message designed to oppress any legitimate group. I believe that would be called, for example - incitement to racial or religious hatred. It would also be a problem if it were libellous too. Now the problem is where do you draw the line. ---
**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/19 "2002-12-09T17:36:22Z")
I’m just still bitter that goats was forced to pull their Jesus Penis Butter cups merchandise ☹ ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187/20 "2002-12-09T18:02:13Z")
I don’t think it does, cas. Do you really think that there should be a _law_ against that stuff? That someone wearing it should be arrested? (libellous is already illegal) …and I hardly think that jesus flipping the bird is a hate message. This lady thinks it should be illegal. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-compare-these-two-are-you-an-idiot/141187.md?page=2)