# How can you fight that of which you are ignorant? (dismantling racism) (long, sorry) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2020, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162 "2020-01-09T04:56:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/221 "2020-01-13T19:46:35Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > And im not misunderstanding your words when I say you are mischaracterizing what I said to Mark by saying I “asked him what I should do” because that is absolutely NOT what I asked of him. So no, it’s not a fair summary. Asking him to tell me what I should do would have been an inappropriate question to ask of him, irrespective of the context entirely. Even in the context of asking the question in response to reading his shared post, it would have been simply wrong of me. Wrong because that would be placing MY burden of the need for enlightenment and direction on HIS shoulders. And we’ve discussed that very thing in this thread, the clueless white man asking the ones who have been directly affected by this destructive racist patriarchy, to ALSO instruct the “good white guys” on how they should fight and be antiracist. > > It’s a good thing I didn’t ask him such a thing. I read a chilling and illuminating post which discussed this patriarchy in terms that struck me and made me think. My brain automatically continued where the post stopped, which was after they had described how this patriarchy fed on the lives of those oppressed and the ways in which it would forever continue this oppression existence as long as it remained and wasn’t destroyed. I didn’t ask him what I needed to do, or presenting myself as one of the good guys ready to battle, or feeling as if he wanted anything from me, he simply wanted me and thousands of others on that forum, to be able to read the words he felt were important enough to share. This is exhausting. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > I asked him, “what, in your opinion, might be some ways to combat this white supremacist patriarchy”? Word for word, that is what i asked him I characterize that as asking “In your opinion what should I do?” and you respond with two long paragraphs about what a terrible summary that is, because there’s so much daylight between “What are some ways to combat this” and “what should I do”? Uh, no. Very few folks are going to read what you wrote and think it means something vastly different from, “What should I do?” The difference you’re claiming is significant is not. This is very similar to the hundreds of words you’ve spent emphasizing that his opinion was specifically what you were seeking. Most people are not going to find that adjectival phrase a particularly significant part of your initial question. What is significant is the amount of nitpickery you’re engaging in to defend your initial question. If you behaved on his FB wall anything like you’re behaving here, I’m unsurprised at the level of pushback you received. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/222 "2020-01-13T19:57:22Z")
The first crucial step in dismantling white patriarchy is dropping defensiveness and looking at our own attitudes critically. I’d recommend starting with the book \*[White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism](https://www.amazon.com/s?k=white+fragility+robin+diangelo&i=stripbooks&crid=JBGIQBQETRD7&sprefix=White+fr%2Caps%2C216&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_8)\*by Robin DiAngelo and Michael Eric Dyson. If you absolutely cannot see your own white fragility, read it so you understand the role white fragility plays in keeping the white patriarchy in place. If you read it objectively, you’re bound to recognize yourself. Don’t take umbrage. There’s a lot of pressure to BE the “good white person”–so much so that it’s impossible for a good white person to escape. The measure of how sincere and earnest a white person is in wanting to demolish the white patriarchy is whether that white person is willing to start with his own beliefs–objectively, critically, sometimes painfully. Your friend Mark couldn’t help you with that. You have to be willing to do that yourself. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/223 "2020-01-13T20:00:51Z")
You seem to get really hung up on wanting to know what his opinion was of something he posted. I dunno, man, if I post something without a commentary that shows I’m not with the sentiments expressed in what I posted it means I’m on board with it. He posted something he agreed with and here you come asking what his “opinion” is of it. His opinion is that he agrees. Continued insistence that he engage with you to explain his opinion is something that I’d find pretty fucking annoying if someone did it to me, especially when I’m on my FB page with friends who at least ostensibly know enough about me to recognize what I think of things I post. As for getting upset that he didn’t want to engage with you on it–good grief, man, take a hint. “No” is a complete sentence, he doesn’t have to justify why he doesn’t want to talk to you about it. The fact that he has done so in the past and is not wanting to continue would tell me that I’ve worn out my welcome on a given subject and it’s time for me to back the fuck off and leave the person alone who says “Yo, leave me alone.” You might very well have been annoying the fuck out of him all during those previous discussions but he continued thinking maybe he could get it across to you and now he’s just done. You don’t have a right to his time or attention and if he says “Google it” he means “leave me alone and figure it out on your own because I’m tired of this.” It’s not mysterious or weird or puzzling or freaky to anyone but you, apparently, because about fifty people have been trying all throughout this thread to tell you that you’ve been going at this like a damned pitbull after a bone and it’s inappropriate to keep on grabbing after the bone gets taken away and the bone owner says “no.” BUT I JUST NEED TO UNDERSTAAAAAAAND is YOUR problem and YOU need to figure it out on your own. Mark does not want to help any more and has said so. I’m really puzzled why you find it so incomprehensible that you’ve exceeded his patience and are throwing yourself full force into his clear boundary. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/224 "2020-01-13T20:14:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is exhausting. > > I characterize that as asking “In your opinion what should I do?” and you respond with two long paragraphs about what a terrible summary that is, because there’s so much daylight between “What are some ways to combat this” and “what should I do”? > > Uh, no. Very few folks are going to read what you wrote and think it means something vastly different from, “What should I do?” The difference you’re claiming is significant is not. > > What is significant is the amount of nitpickery you’re engaging in to defend your initial question. If you behaved on his FB wall anything like you’re behaving here, I’m unsurprised at the level of pushback you received. It’s not nitpickery because, despite how my words may appear written, I am telling you I “what, in your opinion, might be some ways to combat this supremacy” were exactly the words I meant for him to understand me to be asking of him. If I wanted him to give me good advice and tips on what I should do, I would have said exactly that. “what are some ways in which I could combat this patriarchy?” The reason there is a big difference between “what do you think are some ways…” and “what can I do…” is one question is posed as a broad, general question of possibilites for anyone, while the “what can I do” is a self-serving question that isn’t meant to explore the possible means for destroying the patriarchy beyone what this one little white guy can achieve. I had no thoughts of self-involvement at the time of my question to him. I’m acknowledging how someone could possibly see murkiness or lack of the brightest of bright lines of distinction here but I am telling you now (and have been this entire thread) that I was not asking him what I could do to fight patriarchy. I was asking for his opinion of some possible ways in which it could be fought at all. I was not even seeing myself as being an active warrior in the fight against this evil, not at the time of my question to him. I really did simply want to hear what he had to say on what he thought about what might work as far as fighting against this evil. I had no thoughts of self-involvement at the time of my question to him. I was thinking in much bigger, more meaningful terms. This _is_ getting exhausting. Stop trying to paint me as having done something I have not. And stop trying to characterize my refusal to accept fairly meaningful changes to my original words thru faulty summaries and such as “nitpicking”. If it _sounds_ like nitpicking, read closer. It’s not. And any mistakes I may have made in this exchange with my classmate, I will never see any as rising to the level of being labeled “terrible behavior”. If I’ve engaged in terrible behavior, then what the fuck is good behavior? At most, I was oblivious and inattentive. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/225 "2020-01-13T21:16:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You are not talking about the hurt that comes from having to bare wounds and educate white people. No, that first one is exactly the hurt I’m talking about. But unlike you, I [know](https://www.apa.org/pubs/highlights/spotlight/issue-128)it’s \*not \*metaphorical. > [@](#): > > The “hurting” here is about the hurt that is caused by educating white people. No, it’s about _ **constantly having to revisit trauma** _ to educate White people. Or, apparently, Asian people. There’s no need for the scare quotes around the word, the hurt is completely real. And kills. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/226 "2020-01-13T21:16:48Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > The first crucial step in dismantling white patriarchy is dropping defensiveness and looking at our own attitudes critically. I’d recommend starting with the book \*[White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism](https://www.amazon.com/s?k=white+fragility+robin+diangelo&i=stripbooks&crid=JBGIQBQETRD7&sprefix=White+fr%2Caps%2C216&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_8)\*by Robin DiAngelo and Michael Eric Dyson. If you absolutely cannot see your own white fragility, read it so you understand the role white fragility plays in keeping the white patriarchy in place. If you read it objectively, you’re bound to recognize yourself. Don’t take umbrage. There’s a lot of pressure to BE the “good white person”–so much so that it’s impossible for a good white person to escape. > > > [@](#): > > > > The measure of how sincere and earnest a white person is in wanting to demolish the white patriarchy is whether that white person is willing to start with his own beliefs–objectively, critically, sometimes painfully. Your friend Mark couldn’t help you with that. You have to be willing to do that yourself. Do you honestly believe I was attempting to ask Mark to help me examine my own beliefs re white fragility and my role in white partriarchial racism? And that I needed to be told that Mark can’t help me with such things? Do you? You honestly believe those things? Because if you do, I’ve learned something and you _did_ help me with that. All I can say here is I’ve addressed this already, thoroughly in my opinion. I will be the first to acknowledge the role I play in keeping white patriarchy alive. I’ve discussed this. This thread is getting to a length where I can honestly sympathize if some areas of discussion may have been overlooked by some new posters. The only defensiveness I believe I’ve displayed here is a defensiveness in protecting the integrity of my words and a vigilance that the _correct_ story is being discussed and I’m not mischaracterized in order to fit me in to a particular box that fits a pre-written narrative. For instance, I will not let this story become one of me “seeking answers on what I should do to fight racism”. That is just an easy strawman that lets me be painted as a classic entitled privileged white man (which I am not even denying I am, I’m saying that THIS story is not evidence of that). I also will not let this discussion become one of me asking my friend this question as an attempt to get quick answers to my own search for enlightenment on becoming antiracist. That is not at all what actually took place, so I will not let my story become one revolving around this fiction. And I will not let the story become one of me getting hung up wanting to know his opinion on something he posted. I was _not_ hung up on wanting to know his opinion and (just in case it gets mixed up) he shared someone else’s post, he didn’t actually write it himself. I was “hung up” on not being able to understand why he wouldn’t engage with me over this seemingly innocuous issue. After all, we had discussed racial issues MANY times over the years as well as many other “don’t go there” subjects. He is the last person to withhold opinion. And I was never “upset”, I was rather having a hard time with not understanding. There IS a difference. Being upset implies a personal insult or injury about something, doesn’t it? \<_unfortunate but necesary repeat summary_\> Let me summarize the events that took place, just to serve as a reminder. My friend shared a post from a group of black activists, which was shared on his FB, to all his nearly 5000 friends. He shared this post without any comment of his own, just letting those words of the other black activists speak for themselves. I happened to be online right around the same time he posted it, so I was able to read it before many others. Again, Mark did not post one word of his own to this post. I read it, it was a chilling description of the white supremacist patriarchy and the things it did to maintain it’s hold, to survive and to oppress. It also discussed why it would always be a thriving monster until and unless it was destroyed. It was an interesting read. I had no self-serving motives (at all!) when I then asked Mark, what, in your opinion, might be some ways this evil patriarchy might be destroyed? It was the very first thing my mind jumped on after reading the post, as it ended just as one would expect discussion of the “how to beat it” might start. I simply asked what I thought was a fairly logical follow up question to the man who posted this material and who obviously felt it important enough to share with so many people. When he gave me the answer of “not my problem” and “google is your friend” I became mired in confusion, as it seemed as though he had thought my question was more than simple intellectual curiosity, and actually an attempt at “short-cutting” my own necessary work and introspection needed to become an official “antiracist”. I was never trying to convince him that I was “one of the good guys”. I was only trying to understand why he immediately thought these things based on my question and let him know that I was only curious of _his_ opinion, not of educating myself with googling and research. I didn’t “pester” him with continued questions like “why are you not answering me” or anything so childish as that. I was doing two things tho, trying to understand why _this_ one particular post about race was something that he was unwilling to give any sort of opinion on, and trying to have him see that I only wanted what I ever wanted with any of our discussions but with a twist, I wanted to hear his thoughts but without any dialogue from me. I had nothing to contribute. I just wanted to listen. \<_unfortunate but necessary_\> In hindsight, I see I was guilty of obliviousness (to how my continued attempts to understand and be understood might come across to him in those moments) and a failure to understand that Mark (due to him really knowing me!) may have been reticient to talk with me about such matters because he knew me to be one to always push for more in a discussion and break matters down to be examined. I can see that as being a very distinct possibility, exacerbated by the poor job of mine of communicating my true desire to only listen, not discuss. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/227 "2020-01-13T21:19:19Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > It’s not nitpickery because, despite how my words may appear written, I am telling you I “what, in your opinion, might be some ways to combat this supremacy” were exactly the words I meant for him to understand me to be asking of him. If I wanted him to give me good advice and tips on what I should do, I would have said exactly that. “what are some ways in which I could combat this patriarchy?” Just FYI, absent your explanation, I would see absolutely no difference between those two questions, because you’re clearly asking it in your personal capacity, not as a journalist or representative of a larger movement… ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/228 "2020-01-13T21:22:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, that first one is exactly the hurt I’m talking about. But unlike you, I [know](https://www.apa.org/pubs/highlights/spotlight/issue-128)it’s \*not \*metaphorical. > > No, it’s about _ **constantly having to revisit trauma** _ to educate White people. Or, apparently, Asian people. There’s no need for the scare quotes around the word, the hurt is completely real. And kills. Can I ask for your…opinion :eek: on this? What would be more traumatic as a revisiting wound? To post a graphic and very descriptive essay on the nature and habits and oppressive evils of white supremacist patriarchy, which thousands of ignorant white people will inevitably see? Or answering a question asking for _your opinion_ on what you saw as possible methods of destroying this evil? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/229 "2020-01-13T21:26:13Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Can I ask for your…opinion :eek: on this? What would be more traumatic as a revisiting wound? To post a graphic and very descriptive essay on the nature and habits and oppressive evils of white supremacist patriarchy, which thousands of ignorant white people will inevitably see? Or answering a question asking for _your opinion_ on what you saw as possible methods of destroying this evil? The latter. Reposting memes (that I didn’t write) is less mental and psychological effort than playing Magic Negro for someone who won’t just Sit Down and Be Humble when asked to. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/230 "2020-01-13T21:26:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Just FYI, absent your explanation, I would see absolutely no difference between those two questions, because you’re clearly asking it in your personal capacity, not as a journalist or representative of a larger movement… Well Im honestly shocked by this. What is your opinion on possible ways Trump can be removed from office before his term is up? How can I personally participate in removing Trump from office before his term is up? You see these as identical questions too? And you _would_ see the difference immediately, if only I asked the question in a professional capacity? How about a freelance journalist? Would you have to nail down my legitimacy and qualifications as a journalists before you were able to see the difference between the questions? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/231 "2020-01-13T21:31:20Z")
If Mark wrote back to you that he didn’t want to give you his opinion because 1) he doesn’t think his opinion is as interesting or as thoughtful as the millions of other already expressed opinions out there on the interweb and 2) he doesn’t think you will take his honest opinions very well based on past experiences with folks like you, what would be your response? Would you still press him for his opinion because you don’t really care about a deeper knowledge or understanding and you don’t think you’d be upset? Or would you respect him by moving on to Google like he suggested? Because the more you double-down with your long posts, the less I think you really care about knowledge and understanding. And these are the things Mark probably wishes you would focus on rather than his singular opinion. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/232 "2020-01-13T22:05:39Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Do you honestly believe I was attempting to ask Mark to help me examine my own beliefs re white fragility and my role in white partriarchial racism? And that I needed to be told that Mark can’t help me with such things? Do you? You honestly believe those things? Because if you do, I’ve learned something and you _did_ help me with that. > > All I can say here is I’ve addressed this already, thoroughly in my opinion. I will be the first to acknowledge the role I play in keeping white patriarchy alive. I’ve discussed this. This thread is getting to a length where I can honestly sympathize if some areas of discussion may have been overlooked by some new posters. The only defensiveness I believe I’ve displayed here is a defensiveness in protecting the integrity of my words and a vigilance that the _correct_ story is being discussed and I’m not mischaracterized in order to fit me in to a particular box that fits a pre-written narrative. > > For instance, I will not let this story become one of me “seeking answers on what I should do to fight racism”. That is just an easy strawman that lets me be painted as a classic entitled privileged white man (which I am not even denying I am, I’m saying that THIS story is not evidence of that). I also will not let this discussion become one of me asking my friend this question as an attempt to get quick answers to my own search for enlightenment on becoming antiracist. That is not at all what actually took place, so I will not let my story become one revolving around this fiction. And I will not let the story become one of me getting hung up wanting to know his opinion on something he posted. I was _not_ hung up on wanting to know his opinion and (just in case it gets mixed up) he shared someone else’s post, he didn’t actually write it himself. I was “hung up” on not being able to understand why he wouldn’t engage with me over this seemingly innocuous issue. After all, we had discussed racial issues MANY times over the years as well as many other “don’t go there” subjects. He is the last person to withhold opinion. And I was never “upset”, I was rather having a hard time with not understanding. There IS a difference. Being upset implies a personal insult or injury about something, doesn’t it? > > \<_unfortunate but necesary repeat summary_\> > > Let me summarize the events that took place, just to serve as a reminder. My friend shared a post from a group of black activists, which was shared on his FB, to all his nearly 5000 friends. He shared this post without any comment of his own, just letting those words of the other black activists speak for themselves. I happened to be online right around the same time he posted it, so I was able to read it before many others. Again, Mark did not post one word of his own to this post. I read it, it was a chilling description of the white supremacist patriarchy and the things it did to maintain it’s hold, to survive and to oppress. It also discussed why it would always be a thriving monster until and unless it was destroyed. It was an interesting read. I had no self-serving motives (at all!) when I then asked Mark, what, in your opinion, might be some ways this evil patriarchy might be destroyed? It was the very first thing my mind jumped on after reading the post, as it ended just as one would expect discussion of the “how to beat it” might start. I simply asked what I thought was a fairly logical follow up question to the man who posted this material and who obviously felt it important enough to share with so many people. When he gave me the answer of “not my problem” and “google is your friend” I became mired in confusion, as it seemed as though he had thought my question was more than simple intellectual curiosity, and actually an attempt at “short-cutting” my own necessary work and introspection needed to become an official “antiracist”. I was never trying to convince him that I was “one of the good guys”. I was only trying to understand why he immediately thought these things based on my question and let him know that I was only curious of _his_ opinion, not of educating myself with googling and research. I didn’t “pester” him with continued questions like “why are you not answering me” or anything so childish as that. I was doing two things tho, trying to understand why _this_ one particular post about race was something that he was unwilling to give any sort of opinion on, and trying to have him see that I only wanted what I ever wanted with any of our discussions but with a twist, I wanted to hear his thoughts but without any dialogue from me. I had nothing to contribute. I just wanted to listen. > > \<_unfortunate but necessary_\> > > In hindsight, I see I was guilty of obliviousness (to how my continued attempts to understand and be understood might come across to him in those moments) and a failure to understand that Mark (due to him really knowing me!) may have been reticient to talk with me about such matters because he knew me to be one to always push for more in a discussion and break matters down to be examined. I can see that as being a very distinct possibility, exacerbated by the poor job of mine of communicating my true desire to only listen, not discuss. I seem to have hit a nerve. No, of course I don’t believe you were asking Mark to help you with your own feelings of white fragility. I meant what I said and not what you’re interpreting it as from what appears to be a frenzy of incensed defensiveness. I said was that only you can do this. I didn’t say you asked Mark to help you with that but that he _couldn’t_ help you with that. In other words, turn your attention away from Mark and to yourself. Instead of getting all shocked and unable to grok Mark’s response, do the work only you can do. Every time suggests you work on this yourself by reading articles or books–we’ve even posted links–you get more defensive and seem more incensed. Why _are_ you so incensed that people suggest you may have been mistaken or in the wrong? Why are you so provoked that someone suggested understanding white fragility–an almost universal phenomenon among white people and not a slur–might help you understand one thing that maintains white patriarchy? You don’t need to answer _me_. You need to ask yourself those questions. If you truly want to help dismantle the white patriarchy, stop ranting here and start some honest self-examination (which we all need to do) and start reading. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/233 "2020-01-13T22:51:43Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > It’s not nitpickery because, despite how my words may appear written, I am telling you I “what, in your opinion, might be some ways to combat this supremacy” were exactly the words I meant for him to understand me to be asking of him. If I wanted him to give me good advice and tips on what I should do, I would have said exactly that. “what are some ways in which I could combat this patriarchy?” The reason there is a big difference between “what do you think are some ways…” and “what can I do…” is one question is posed as a broad, general question of possibilites for anyone, while the “what can I do” is a self-serving question that isn’t meant to explore the possible means for destroying the patriarchy beyone what this one little white guy can achieve. I had no thoughts of self-involvement at the time of my question to him. > > I’m acknowledging how someone could possibly see murkiness or lack of the brightest of bright lines of distinction here but I am telling you now (and have been this entire thread) that I was not asking him what I could do to fight patriarchy. I was asking for his opinion of some possible ways in which it could be fought at all. I was not even seeing myself as being an active warrior in the fight against this evil, not at the time of my question to him. I really did simply want to hear what he had to say on what he thought about what might work as far as fighting against this evil. I had no thoughts of self-involvement at the time of my question to him. I was thinking in much bigger, more meaningful terms. > > This _is_ getting exhausting. Stop trying to paint me as having done something I have not. And stop trying to characterize my refusal to accept fairly meaningful changes to my original words thru faulty summaries and such as “nitpicking”. If it _sounds_ like nitpicking, read closer. It’s not. And any mistakes I may have made in this exchange with my classmate, I will never see any as rising to the level of being labeled “terrible behavior”. If I’ve engaged in terrible behavior, then what the fuck is good behavior? At most, I was oblivious and inattentive. If I squint, I can see the difference you’re describing. It doesn’t favor you: it implies that instead of asking him to dig deep so you could try to make some changes, you wanted him to dig deep out of shits and giggles and weren’t communicating an intent to be better. In no way does your clarification change my criticism of your behavior. It only deepens it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/234 "2020-01-13T23:41:25Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > For instance, I will not let this story become one of me “seeking answers on what I should do to fight racism”. […] > > I had no self-serving motives (at all!) when I then asked Mark, what, in your opinion, might be some ways this evil patriarchy might be destroyed? I agree with other posters that the fairly subtle difference between your interpretations of these two questions is one that you needed to make a whole lot clearer if you wanted to convey it effectively in practice. Coincidentally, I just came across [this excellent and relevant interview with Indian-American author Mira Jacob](https://longreads.com/2019/03/26/imagine-us-because-were-here-an-interview-with-mira-jacob/) about her recent graphic-book memoir _Good Talk_ about being non-white, and dealing with the complications of mixed-race families and friendships, in America: > [@](#): > > **Interviewer** : You write, “Sometimes you weigh explaining against staying quiet and know they’re both just different kinds of heavy.” That really leveled me. Very few people understand that constantly having to explain yourself or defend yourself against microaggressions is exhausting. How do you begin to make people understand the concept of emotional labor when it goes largely unseen even to family members? > [@](#): > > **Mira Jacob** : Not only does it go unseen, I think it’s expected. That to me is the hardest part. Yes, it’s invisible, but even if it is visible, it is expected. Of course you should do this work for me, your job is in fact to do this work. […] > > I have lost countless white friends over the last few years in kind of this brutal shakedown of white liberalism, people who have always considered themselves to be on the right side of everything but the minute you say hey you’re hurting me, this hurts they have such an intolerance for hearing. They can’t have any conversation except for the one where you say they’re not racist. Any other conversation you want to have, you cannot have it until you first say they are not racist. Being put in that position over and over again has taught me that it’s really common that people will expect you to do this work for them; it’s really common to be told that when you are refusing to do that work and when you say ‘hey this is what your show looks like’ or ‘hey this is what your part of this burden looks like’ they will say ‘how dare you?’ How dare you say that about me? How dare you think that of me? […] > [@](#): > > **Interviewer** : […] I’m black and I’ve felt the irritation of someone — even someone well-meaning — saying “I don’t know why this is wrong, can you explain it?” > [@](#): > > **Mira Jacob** : No, I don’t want to. I don’t want to spend my day doing that for you! Can you Google it? And if you can’t, can you turn to a different friend because I’m tapped out right now. […] > > Alison’s my best friend you probably know that if you read the book, she’s in many parts of it — she said this funny thing to me in a bar once where she’s like, “Do I need to have the white lady to white lady talk with her?” And I was like, what? “What is the ‘white lady to white lady’ conversation?” And she says it’s the one where you turn to that person and say, You just flipped out on Mira about your own racism, you just threw every funny feeling that you had in your body about racism at a woman who has been dealing with nothing but her entire life. Who in this situation do you think maybe needs a break from that moment and who do you think needs to pick it up and carry it forward? […] > [@](#): > > **Interviewer** : While most of the stories you share are about times when you’ve been on the receiving end of a racist or sexist remark, you also share memories of instances when you’ve subjected others to your own prejudices. Why was it important to you to include that? > [@](#): > > **Mira Jacob** : a., Because they happened, but also b., because I am seeing around me, as I’m sure you are, the performance of wokeness and the idea that being woke is a destination. It seems to me that some people think it’s literally a plane trip and you’re in another land and then you are woke […] I just find that such a load of shit. I think there is only ever waking, right? There’s only ever going to be waking. There is not a moment in which you’re going to ever truly be woke, and I say that as a person of color who everyone always assumes is on the right side of things and I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/235 "2020-01-14T00:01:26Z")
That interview is so good–we run into something similar when trying to talk to men about misogyny and sexism. Same thing, you can’t possibly proceed until you genuflect and say your “not all men” rosary to pacify them. I know I’m racist–I hope it’s just the “you’re soaking in it” variety but I’m damned if I’m going to tell a POC they’re wrong about something they find problematical about what I do or say. My agreement is not a necessary part of the equation (no matter how much if might gig me to accept that fact) and it’s my burden to sit with what I’ve been told is a problem by the person who experiences that problem as a matter of course. And THAT is a big first step to dismantling racism or any other -ism–shut up, sit with it, and no matter how wrong you think the other person is you figure out how to see the world in such a way that their perception is truth and if you won’t or can’t do that then you will always be part of the problem but never a part of the solution. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/236 "2020-01-14T00:16:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If I squint, I can see the difference you’re describing. It doesn’t favor you: it implies that instead of asking him to dig deep so you could try to make some changes, you wanted him to dig deep out of shits and giggles and weren’t communicating an intent to be better. In no way does your clarification change my criticism of your behavior. It only deepens it. That’s exactly how I interpret the “in your opinion” nuance. It sounds like you’re asking him to indulge your idle curiosity, perhaps so you can judge and interrogate and be amused by his performance. You should be glad he read your question in the more charitable way. Because the above smacks of all kinds of privileged smugness. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/237 "2020-01-14T00:26:34Z")
**Kimstu** , what an awesome interview. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/238 "2020-01-14T00:37:28Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > For instance, I will not let this story become one of me “seeking answers on what I should do to fight racism”. That is just an easy strawman that lets me be painted as a classic entitled privileged white man (which I am not even denying I am, I’m saying that THIS story is not evidence of that). I also will not let this discussion become one of me asking my friend this question as an attempt to get quick answers to my own search for enlightenment on becoming antiracist. That is not at all what actually took place, so I will not let my story become one revolving around this fiction. And I will not let the story become one of me getting hung up wanting to know his opinion on something he posted. > > [. . .] > > my continued attempts to understand and be understood > > [. . .] the poor job of mine of communicating my true desire to only listen, not discuss. If you only wanted to listen, why on earth didn’t you just listen? Instead, apparently, you kept making those “continued attempts”. How is that not insisting on discussing? I don’t see much sign that you’re listening here, either. You seem, instead, to be fixated on being the only one who’s in charge of the discussion, and the only one who’s allowed to say what the discussion means. Your original question reads to me, as it does to many others here, exactly as if you’re asking what you should do, and as if you were seeking quick answers about this from your friend. And when people explain this to you, you don’t say ‘whoops, sorry, I didn’t mean that, but if multiple other people read it that way maybe that’s the problem’; instead you complain that it’s a strawman argument, and that you won’t allow anybody to tell you how your question reads to them. – going to go read that interview now. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/239 "2020-01-14T01:09:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > **Kimstu** , what an awesome interview. Agreed–and that book sounds awesome. I’m not a memoir reader at all, but for this will make an exception. Edit: [the short bit linked to is amazing](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mirajacob/questions-from-my-mixed-race-son). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/240 "2020-01-14T01:19:54Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > **Kimstu** , what an awesome interview. 🙂 I gotta say, the book’s even better. Disclaimer: I am in no way connected with the publishers Penguin Random House, the author Mira Jacob, or any other entity with any interest financial or otherwise in promotion of the book _Good Talk_. I just happened upon an excerpt from it when it came out and was so intrigued I had to buy it. Caveat: The graphic/dialogue layout means that the book is rather difficult to read on a smaller screen such as a Kindle, so if you do get it you might prefer the physical book format or at least a larger-screen device. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162.md?page=13)