# How can you fight that of which you are ignorant? (dismantling racism) (long, sorry) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2020, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162 "2020-01-09T04:56:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/81 "2020-01-09T19:59:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Did you check out that link about school segregation? There’s a [This American Life](https://www.thisamericanlife.org/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-one) about the same issue, which really opened my eyes. Yeah, I think that the “I want to live in a good school district” approach is very often a misguided approach. Not always, but from what I’ve read and heard, the definition of “good school district” is based on metrics that look relevant but really aren’t, and ignore metrics that don’t looks so relevant but really are. I did, it’s about private schools though, and about inherent racism in that “good” schools (based on test scores) aren’t considered “good” by white parents if they’re full of minority students. I definitely listened to the TAL podcast when it came out, and since then that’s informed a lot of my desire to move my kids into a black school district. I think according to that piece, or at least data that’s come out since then, forcing segregation by moving black kids to white schools doesn’t work anywhere near as well as moving white kids into black schools. And so I thought, “Why not me?” But I talked upthread about that. Regardless, if the definition of a “good school district” is based on bad metrics, that’s an argument in favor of getting better metrics, which I’m all for. That’s not an argument against saying “I want to live in a good school district, for me kids.” Unless there are NO metrics that can ever define a good school district. I’m certainly open to the idea that the 5 or 6 school districts that are well rated are given unfairly high ratings for various reasons, but that’s a far cry from saying my kids would have the same results if I’d just sent them to any school. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/82 "2020-01-09T20:07:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ha! I assume this is an attempt at an impression of the kind of fantasy-world SJW that lives only in Rush Limbaugh’s imagination? If so, how 'bout another one? Maybe you could do the fake Obama that haunts Trump’s dreams? Yeah, I went over the top. No one would ever advise someone who expressed a sincere desire to do good and learn how to be anti-racist and was castigated and called names for it, with condescension and the implication they were to blame. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/83 "2020-01-09T20:09:56Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I _did not_ ask him for examples of issues that lend credence to the idea that racism and oppression of minorities is still alive and well! Where in the hell did thst come from? I asked him if he had any personal thoughts on ways _combat_ this racism and oppression! I dont need to be shown or fucking convinced that racism is alive and well! Jesus. Ive lived in Flint Mi all my life. Tjat right there alone is enough to know racism isnt dead. Then I’m even more confused. You’re ignorant of ways to _fight_ racism, and needed to ask your acquaintance? Because if you’re not ignorant of in what ways racism persists, and you’re not ignorant of ways to fight it, then what was the purpose of engaging in the first place? Why not just a simple “like”, or, if you don’t got for that, just not responding to his post at all? That’s how I respond to just about 100% of memes that make it into my feed. No response. Personally, I prefer original content, not shared memes, but that’s neither here nor there. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/84 "2020-01-09T20:13:13Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Instead of being galled, you should look in the mirror and resolve to change whatever was in you that forced that person to call you that. Oh please. The only person there that knew _anything_ about me at all refrained from such sentiments. Meaning the person i was directly engaged with knew me well enough to never label me as such. In previous discussions ive had with him on FB about the perpetual blind spots of white climate change activists and white vegans, one drive-by commenter called me an obvious troll. Well, once again, the only one who knew _anything_ about me, my classmate Mark, answered “no, he’s no troll” whrn asked point blank about me. This person called me an “epitome of the white supremacist patriarchy” based on my conversation that was _only_ about wanting to understand why my simple asking for an opinion of someone ive known and respected for a long time who had posted things that clearly showed he had a personal interest in the issues related to my question was apparently a non-starter. How could this alone give insight to someone that i am this epitome of racism, when the only thing they knew about me _at all_ is that i had asked one of their fb friends a question looking for his opinion on a racially charged subject he had just posted about? I only take a person’s thoughts or opinions, galling or otherwise, directed towards me seriously and with merit when they come from those who have at least _some_ knowledge of me or knowlege of my words or actions that give them adequate information to make an informed judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/85 "2020-01-09T20:18:08Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Then I’m even more confused. You’re ignorant of ways to _fight_ racism, and needed to ask your acquaintance? Because if you’re not ignorant of in what ways racism persists, and you’re not ignorant of ways to fight it, then what was the purpose of engaging in the first place? Why not just a simple “like”, or, if you don’t got for that, just not responding to his post at all? That’s how I respond to just about 100% of memes that make it into my feed. No response. Personally, I prefer original content, not shared memes, but that’s neither here nor there. I _was_ and _am_ ignorant or at least not adequately informed on the ways to best fight racism, both institutional and individual. I never said i was _not_ ignorant of the ways to fight it, only that i was not ignorant to the ways in which it was still alive and well. And btw, how could you _possibly_ think i said i was not ignorant on ways to fight racism, when my post that you quoted **says that very thing right there clear as day**?! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/86 "2020-01-09T20:20:54Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Yeah, I went over the top. No one would ever advise someone who expressed a sincere desire to do good and learn how to be anti-racist and was castigated and called names for it, with condescension and the implication they were to blame. Wait, is this now sarcasm about your sarcastic attempt at hyperbole? I’m losing track. If you’re trying to criticize a post in this thread, it’s helpful to use the QUOTE function. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/87 "2020-01-09T20:39:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Wait, is this now sarcasm about your sarcastic attempt at hyperbole? I’m losing track. If you’re trying to criticize a post in this thread, it’s helpful to use the QUOTE function. This was a veiled criticism of your post #64 in which you first explained how exhausting it is for you and other people of color to be constantly explaining to white people that they are one of the good ones. Then you condescendingly blamed him for it because of a tone you detected. I hope that was clear. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/88 "2020-01-09T20:46:07Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This was a veiled criticism of your post #64 in which you first explained how exhausting it is for you and other people of color to be constantly explaining to white people that they are one of the good ones. Are you under the impression that I’m a person of color? If so, let me correct you – I’m not. But what part of that post do you disagree with? Your “veiled criticism” doesn’t appear to address this at all. > [@](#): > > Then you condescendingly blamed him for it because of a tone you detected. If I came across as condescending, I apologize – certainly wasn’t my intent. And I’m not sure where I assigned any blame. > [@](#): > > I hope that was clear. No, but thanks for trying! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/89 "2020-01-09T20:46:42Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Oh please. The only person there that knew _anything_ about me at all refrained from such sentiments. psst–puddleglum is apparently attempting to write some next-level satire here, because that’s way better than engaging in a forthright discussion because something something social justice warriors. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/90 "2020-01-09T21:11:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are you under the impression that I’m a person of color? If so, let me correct you – I’m not. But what part of that post do you disagree with? Your “veiled criticism” doesn’t appear to address this at all. > > If I came across as condescending, I apologize – certainly wasn’t my intent. And I’m not sure where I assigned any blame. > > No, but thanks for trying! As the recipient of the comment, let me say, i did not find it condescending in the least. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/91 "2020-01-09T21:13:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are you under the impression that I’m a person of color? If so, let me correct you – I’m not. But what part of that post do you disagree with? Your “veiled criticism” doesn’t appear to address this at all. > > If I came across as condescending, I apologize – certainly wasn’t my intent. And I’m not sure where I assigned any blame. > > No, but thanks for trying! I guess I just assumed you were a person of color because you were acting as their spokesman, it shows alot about you that they were willing to trust you with that job even though your a white person. The part I disagree with is the notion of it being incredibly exhausting to reassure someone else that you don’t think of them as a racist. The civil rights heros marched, , braved firehoses and dogs, and risked their lives to fight racism. Apparently the new generation of woke scolds can’t muster the energy to be civil to people on the internet. As obviously silly as the whole thing is, I find it admirable for Ambivalid to try and understand the perspective of other people and to assume that there might be a legitimate reason he was called names by people on Facebook. I did not see anything in the OP that indicated tone policing was called for. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/92 "2020-01-09T21:15:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Nothing whatsoever. I want to be clear on this point, because it’s important: **it’s not Ambivalid’s black acquaintance’s responsibility to convince Ambivalid to be antiracist**. Being antiracist isn’t a position you should have to be coddled and cajoled and enticed into. It’s a position you should hold by virtue of not being an awful person. > > Turn it around: are you convinced that dismantling racism is important? In the very post you quoted, I said his friend had no obligation so I have no idea why you thought the point needed clarification. I think, intellectually, that dismantling racism would be good for society but to be perfectly honest, it holds little emotion for me. In my day to day life I try to treat everyone with empathy and respect. But I’m never gonna march for it, so as far as the progress of society goes I might as well be a nihilist. Someone telling me to check google is certainly not going to change that, and that’s fine. They got to vent and I can go on with my life. Not hurting me. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/93 "2020-01-09T21:19:15Z")
dp ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/94 "2020-01-09T21:21:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are you under the impression that I’m a person of color? If so, let me correct you – I’m not. But what part of that post do you disagree with? Your “veiled criticism” doesn’t appear to address this at all. > > If I came across as condescending, I apologize – certainly wasn’t my intent. And I’m not sure where I assigned any blame. > > No, but thanks for trying! As the recipient of the alleged condescending comment, let me say i didnt find it condescending in the least ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/95 "2020-01-09T21:30:53Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I guess I just assumed you were a person of color because you were acting as their spokesman, it shows alot about you that they were willing to trust you with that job even though your a white person. I thought I made it clear that my opinion came from my experiences talking to folks of color, but if you missed that, I apologize. But out of curiosity, what people of color told you that I was their spokesperson? I’m assuming you wouldn’t just make that up, since I’m assuming you wouldn’t want to speak for people of color. > [@](#): > > The part I disagree with is the notion of it being incredibly exhausting to reassure someone else that you don’t think of them as a racist. The civil rights heros marched, , braved firehoses and dogs, and risked their lives to fight racism. Apparently the new generation of woke scolds can’t muster the energy to be civil to people on the internet. I presume this means you have experience of constantly reassuring others that they’re not racist. You do, right? Otherwise, it would seem absurd to me to have a strong opinion about how exhausting that can be. > [@](#): > > As obviously silly as the whole thing is, I find it admirable for Ambivalid to try and understand the perspective of other people and to assume that there might be a legitimate reason he was called names by people on Facebook. I did not see anything in the OP that indicated tone policing was called for. I find it admirable too. There’s nothing wrong with asking questions. And nothing wrong with not wanting to answer them, of course. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/96 "2020-01-09T21:32:08Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > As the recipient of the comment, let me say, i did not find it condescending in the least. Thank you! I’m glad to hear this. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/97 "2020-01-09T22:30:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > From talking to lots of other white people about racism, ISTM that many have this extremely strong need to be validated, especially by black folks (and other non-white folks) that they are “one of the good ones” (i.e. a non-racist white person). To the point that I’ve seen conversations literally stop because a white guy is insisting that he be positively affirmed as a non-racist white man before they continue (I’ve seen it on this board many times, but also IRL). And any hint that maybe they aren’t totally 100% perfectly enlightened on racial issues might be shattering to them. > > ISTM that this is incredibly exhausting for non-white folks, to constantly feel a bullshit obligation/pressure to praise and affirm their white acquaintances personally any time the issue comes up. > > I bring this up because I sense this sort of tone from the OP’s description of how he handled this discussion, even if it doesn’t appear that he explicitly said so. You may not even consciously be aware of it. If this is at all accurate, then I’d suggest you step back and think about it. No one is obligated to tell you that you’re not a racist. No one is obligated to tell any white person that they’re not racist (except maybe John Brown). You aren’t owed anything, even explanations, regarding this topic, from your black friends and acquaintances. If they want to explain things to you, then that’s great on them, but they’re under no such obligation. That’d be doing you a big favor – which maybe some folks will be in the mood for sometimes, but sometimes they won’t. That’s okay. I don’t understand this line of thought. If I have a black friend who is going on about how whites oppress him and whites do this and whites do that, isn’t it reasonable for me to ask if he thinks that I am doing any of those things to him? Of course, he has no legal or contractual obligation to respond, but wouldn’t it be pretty dickish and not a very friendly thing to do if he didn’t? In every single other area of life it would be a reasonable question. Why not this one? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/98 "2020-01-09T22:33:16Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I don’t understand this line of thought. If I have a black friend who is going on about how whites oppress him and whites do this and whites do that, isn’t it reasonable for me to ask if he thinks that I am doing any of those things to him? Asking such questions is fine, IMO. Under most circumstances, anyway. Under some, it might be as inappropriate as asking for details from a rape victim about their attack. > [@](#): > > Of course, he has no legal or contractual obligation to respond, but wouldn’t it be pretty dickish and not a very friendly thing to do if he didn’t? Not necessarily, IMO. > [@](#): > > In every single other area of life it would be a reasonable question. Why not this one? Nothing is simple when it comes to racism and bigotry in America. It really can poison everything – even things that seem as mundane and simple as this. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/99 "2020-01-09T22:53:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Being antiracist isn’t a position you should have to be coddled and cajoled and enticed into. It’s a position you should hold by virtue of not being an awful person. I disagree with this claim on principle. Would you be interested in a separate thread on this? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162/100 "2020-01-09T23:26:56Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Well, okay, but what they saw of you was some drive-by white dude saying “Ok, well, what do you think we should do about it?”, which has very often been the exact reasoning used to justify doing nothing. Do you see how that could be perceived as patronizing? I was really not a “drive-by poster” in any sense of the phrase. Unless you are radically altering the meaning of the term. Again, the only person besides myself who _wasn’t_ a drive-by poster in that conversation, my classmate Mark, did not echo those sentiments in any way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-fight-that-of-which-you-are-ignorant-dismantling-racism-long-sorry/846162.md?page=6)