# How can you kill 77 people in self-defense? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 17, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070 "2012-04-17T18:35:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/81 "2012-04-21T14:49:48Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Thank you for the clarification. So would he have faced the exact same punishment had he killed just one child instead of 77? I’m trying to understand why he’s not facing 21 years x 77 victims, as a matter of principle, if not simply to guarantee that he will remain incarcerated for the remainder of his life. You’re still mistaking preventive detention for a prison punishment. > [@PunditLisa](#): > > while I appreciate your justice system’s willingness to forgive and rehabilitate, at some point even the most forgiving person would agree that, in rare instances, rehabilitation and release is simply not a realistic option. And that’s just the reason for preventive detention, _as an alternative to a prison sentence_, not as a back door for infinite incarceration > [@PunditLisa](#): > > So why go through the pretense? Why not just outright face 21 years x 77 victims, to guarantee that he’ll remain in bars. At the very least, you can spare the Debra Tate’s of the world the need to attend parole hearings every 5-10 years. Because the desire to lock him away indefinitely isn’t the motivation for preventive detention. The reason we have preventive detention is to have the option to lock him up _as long as he can’t be safely released into the streets_, **not** so that we can lock him up and throw away the key tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/82 "2012-04-21T14:52:00Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > He wouldn’t suffer under it for long if they put him to death. And that’s the problem. I don’t want the bastard to die happily tomorrow. I want him to realize what he’s done and that it had the opposite effect of what he wanted. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/83 "2012-04-21T15:00:41Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Yeah, but I bet it’ll be a finely crafted Norwegian pine box… …that you have to put together with an allen wrench. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/84 "2012-04-21T17:06:25Z")
> [@digs](#): > > …that you have to put together with an allen wrench. Nope, that’s the Swedish boxes. And while shopping for the right model, you can get a plate of meatballs with mashed potatoes and lingonberry jam really cheap in the café. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/85 "2012-04-21T17:13:25Z")
_Anyone_ could kill 77 people with an allen wrench, a plate full of meatballs, and lingonberry jam. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/86 "2012-04-21T17:46:22Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > As far as I’m aware, he didn’t carry out any of the executions, he merely commanded them. Do you know who else didn’t personally carry out executions? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/87 "2012-04-21T20:37:27Z")
> [@](#): > > How can you kill 77 people in self-defense? Volume!! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/88 "2012-04-21T20:55:46Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > Could all you guys talking about some Norwegian dude please stop hijacking the thread? I don’t think we’ve quite resolved how many people get offed in Kill Bill yet. Kthxbai. Are we counting the characters killed in O-Ren’s animated origin story? That’s gotta be at least eight. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/89 "2012-04-21T23:04:10Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > And that’s the problem. I don’t want the bastard to die happily tomorrow. I want him to realize what he’s done and that it had the opposite effect of what he wanted. In other words, despite all your pretense, you are actually out for vengeance rather than just keeping a dangerous guy from being out in society. You just get the added advantage of pretending like you’re better than everyone else. Why the fuck should I care that some dead guy thought he was some sort of martyr? He’s, get this, DEAD! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/90 "2012-04-21T23:37:55Z")
I am also a little confused as to why he can’t receive consecutive sentences. However, like somebody said, he’s your asshole (and the victims were your countrymen) and you get to decide what to do with him. > [@BigT](#): > > In other words, despite all your pretense, you are actually out for vengeance rather than just keeping a dangerous guy from being out in society. You just get the added advantage of pretending like you’re better than everyone else. > > Why the fuck should I care that some dead guy thought he was some sort of martyr? He’s, get this, DEAD! Will somebody please buy this moron a dictionary? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/91 "2012-04-22T03:48:09Z")
Mr. Breivik [elaborates further](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/anders-behring-breivik-trial_n_1440166.html?ref=world) into his self-defense argument: [QUOTE=The Huffington Post, April 20, 2012] Breivik said the first shots pushed him into a “fight-and-flight” mode that made it easier to continue killing. [/QUOTE] :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/92 "2012-04-22T04:15:05Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > I think if he appeared on Judge Judy, he wouldn’t even recognise the court’s authority since she is Jewish. > > In fact, he’d probably invoke a similar principle that Israel used to ignore an international court ruling because it didn’t have any Israeli judges on it. Since he’s not anti-Semitic, that comment makes little sense. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/93 "2012-04-22T07:03:47Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > In other words, despite all your pretense, you are actually out for vengeance rather than just keeping a dangerous guy from being out in society. You just get the added advantage of pretending like you’re better than everyone else. If you’re so fucking stupid that you’re unable to see the difference between: 1. Acknowledging one’s gut feelings and 2. Realizing that a civilized society should never use vengeance as a basis for a judiciary system than I can’t help you. Good luck with getting your knuckles up from the ground, moron ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/94 "2012-04-22T08:01:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Why the fuck should I care that some dead guy thought he was some sort of martyr? He’s, get this, DEAD! That was brought up in the context of whether the death penalty is a deterrent. The threat of execution at some point in the future is not much of a deterrent to someone who sees himself as prophet and savior of his people; to him, it would be a martyr’s death, which would advance his cause. It is not to be feared, at least as long as it remains an abstract threat at some undetermined point in the future. Hell, Breivik has repeatedly said he was surprised to have survived that Friday. He was, at least according to his own boasts, not just ready to die but expecting to die. I agree that once he’s dead, it’s not important whether Breivik’s last thoughts were about the glory of his mission or the futility of it all, or something completely different. But the question was about deterrence. The real danger, of course, is that _others who share his philosophy_ could see him as a martyr, and use that as inspiration to carry out further terror attacks. (See also: McVeigh, Timothy, inspirations for.) Treating him as any other accused criminal and once found guilty as any other prisoner may not prevent that, but at least we’re not actively encouraging it. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/95 "2012-04-22T08:51:47Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Thank you for the clarification. So would he have faced the exact same punishment had he killed just one child instead of 77? I’m trying to understand why he’s not facing 21 years x 77 victims, as a matter of principle, if not simply to guarantee that he will remain incarcerated for the remainder of his life. Norway does not practice serial sentencing. If you kill two people you get one sentence, not one for the first murder and another for the other and the two added together. Or if you kill a person, commit a rape, rob a convenience store, etc. You only get sentencing for the murder. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/96 "2012-04-22T18:31:21Z")
That seems rather odd. If you’re out on bail (or whatever the equivalent is) and you know you’re going to be convicted of a prior murder, what’s to stop you from killing everyone in sight? ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/97 "2012-04-22T18:41:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If you’re out on bail (or whatever the equivalent is) You won’t be. Norway doesn’t have a bail system. If it’s assumed that there’s a risk of recidivism, destruction of evidence or that you’ll flee punishment, you’ll be put under detention. If none of those apply, you’re set free. For free. No bail is necessary. If you’re arrested, the police have to let you go within 24 hours or they have to indict you for a crime. If you’re indicted there’ll be a court hearing as soon as possible to decide whether there’s probable cause for prosecution. If there’s probable cause, you’re either detained or set free pending trial depending on the criteria I’ve given above. The detention is usually for two to eight weeks, then there has to be another court hearing to determine whether there’s still a basis for detention. ETA: In Breivik’s case, that court hearing was what happened on [July 25th](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14270655) ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/98 "2012-04-22T18:44:31Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Norway does not practice serial sentencing. If you kill two people you get one sentence, not one for the first murder and another for the other and the two added together. Or if you kill a person, commit a rape, rob a convenience store, etc. You only get sentencing for the murder. Serious question for Norwegians: Do you think that that’s all kinds of fucked up? Or, more politely put, is this method of punishment controversial at all? In the U.S. the death penalty is practiced in most states, but many people (including me, in many instances) believe it is a deeply flawed system. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/99 "2012-04-22T18:52:40Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Serious question for Norwegians: Do you think that that’s all kinds of fucked up? Quite to the contrary. We generally think that the US system of consecutive sentences is all kinds of fucked up. To us, it seems pretty weird to sentence someone to three consecutive life sentences; the guy will be fucking dead before he has any freaking chance of being released. I guess it’s about whether a penalty system should put priority on rehabilitation or “punishment” AKA revenge. Myself, I think that the US practice of giving the victim’s family front seats to watch the execution is pretty sick. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/100 "2012-04-22T20:55:22Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > \*\*How can you kill 77 people in self-defense? \*\* By being the world’s most annoying badass? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070.md?page=6)