# How can you kill 77 people in self-defense? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 17, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070 "2012-04-17T18:35:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/101 "2012-04-22T21:19:13Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Quite to the contrary. We generally think that the US system of consecutive sentences is all kinds of fucked up. To us, it seems pretty weird to sentence someone to three consecutive life sentences; the guy will be fucking dead before he has any freaking chance of being released. > > I guess it’s about whether a penalty system should put priority on rehabilitation or “punishment” AKA revenge. Myself, I think that the US practice of giving the victim’s family front seats to watch the execution is pretty sick. Consecutive sentencing doesn’t necessarily imply that a higher priority is being placed on punishment. It just means a priority has been placed on ensuring criminals are accountable for each of their crimes. What happens if someone is sentenced to, say, 5 years for robbery, and while he’s in the authorities determine that he murdered someone? He’d end up serving 5 years for the robbery and then 21 years plus for the murder; a guy who was convicted of robbery and murder at the same time would serve only 21 years. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/102 "2012-04-22T21:37:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > By being the world’s most annoying badass? Bodyguard for Andy Dick? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/103 "2012-04-22T22:03:28Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > To us, it seems pretty weird to sentence someone to three consecutive life sentences; the guy will be fucking dead before he has any freaking chance of being released. That’s the general idea. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/104 "2012-04-23T00:44:20Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > I guess it’s about whether a penalty system should put priority on rehabilitation or “punishment” AKA revenge. Myself, I think that the US practice of giving the victim’s family front seats to watch the execution is pretty sick. It’s the family’s option whether to attend or not an execution, of course. Personally, I’m not casting any stones on them because I haven’t walked in their shoes. But I do appreciate, and applaud, the fact that in the United States, we recognize each victim as being a separate and valued individual. Lumping all the victims together diminishes and marginalizes them, IMO. Killing one person is bad enough. Killing 77 is a new level of horrible, which is why this story has reached an international audience. I think a penalty system should definitely rehabilitate, where it is reasonable to believe that such a thing is possible. However, I think we ought to take our Mary Poppins’ glasses off when dealing with serial killers and genocidal maniacs. There’s no rehabilitating someone who is void of empathy. And I also recognize that the very reason we have a justice system in the first place is to recognize, and yes, mete out PUNISHMENT, when an offender causes pain to another human being. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/105 "2012-04-23T01:38:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Consecutive sentencing doesn’t necessarily imply that a higher priority is being placed on punishment. It just means a priority has been placed on ensuring criminals are accountable for each of their crimes. > > What happens if someone is sentenced to, say, 5 years for robbery, and while he’s in the authorities determine that he murdered someone? He’d end up serving 5 years for the robbery and then 21 years plus for the murder; a guy who was convicted of robbery and murder at the same time would serve only 21 years. Ah, ok. That makes things a little saner. So they’re really \*concurrent \*sentences rather than consecutive ones. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/106 "2012-04-23T12:48:07Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Quite to the contrary. We generally think that the US system of consecutive sentences is all kinds of fucked up. To us, it seems pretty weird to sentence someone to three consecutive life sentences; the guy will be fucking dead before he has any freaking chance of being released. Wouldn’t such a system create a situation where, once one has committed a crime, there’s literally no disincentive at all to commit any number of _lesser_ crimes? If’ I’ll get 21 years for one murder, and 21 years for one murder, 64 rapes, 16 robberies, and jaywalking, well, I’m already facing the 21, why not go hog wild? > [@Norse](#): > > We don’t treat Breivik correctly for his sake, and personally I couldn’t care less about his personal problems. We treat Breivik correctly and according to human standards _for our own sake_. If we start grading humans and assigning different rights to live, we are on our way to becoming the same kind of monster he is. If we allow for that, we’ve gone from a fundamental difference to a difference in where we are on the same scale. Our treatment of the worst offenders is where we really show whether we really mean “decent and fair treatment of all, according to the rules”, or if that’s just lipservice. Just as the litmus test of freedom of speech is whether we are willing to defend that right also for the opinions we disagree most with. Hey, is Norway vegan? I mean, as long as it’s not about how deserving or not deserving the bad guy is, but only that the act of killing itself makes Norwegians monsters, are you guys eschewing all killing? Or are you still “assigning different rights to live” as long as the victims in question can’t speak up in their own defense? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/107 "2012-04-23T14:01:18Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Ah, ok. That makes things a little saner. So they’re really \*concurrent \*sentences rather than consecutive ones. What are? If you mean sentences in the US, then not necessarily; they can run concurrently _or_ consecutively. It’s up to the judge’s discretion, mitigating circumstances, plea deals and/or applicable sentencing guidelines. I don’t really see the point of concurrent sentencing, except that it lets society tell each victim that they got justice. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/108 "2012-04-23T14:40:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t really see the point of concurrent sentencing, except that it lets society tell each victim that they got justice. I think it is so that if he “gets off on a technicality” for one crime, he must still serve time for the others. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/109 "2012-04-23T14:41:05Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Norway does not practice serial sentencing. If you kill two people you get one sentence, not one for the first murder and another for the other and the two added together. Or if you kill a person, commit a rape, rob a convenience store, etc. You only get sentencing for the murder. You get sentencing for each of them, but since they don’t get tacked one after the other, you fulfill the longest one (in this example, the murder). You could still be pardoned for the murder and need to fulfill the longest one of the still-standing sentencies. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/110 "2012-04-23T16:57:09Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Wouldn’t such a system create a situation where, once one has committed a crime, there’s literally no disincentive at all to commit any number of _lesser_ crimes? If’ I’ll get 21 years for one murder, and 21 years for one murder, 64 rapes, 16 robberies, and jaywalking, well, I’m already facing the 21, why not go hog wild? 'cause the sort of psycho who’d reason that way (a) is extremely rare and (b) would not be dissuaded by electrocution while hanging in front of a firing squad at the end of each of 1451 consecutive life terms. Jesus on rollerskates, people… So Norway does not subscribe to vindictive penal theory. That’s a perfectly cromulent policy decision. Live with it. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/111 "2012-04-24T05:45:49Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Hey, is Norway vegan? I mean, as long as it’s not about how deserving or not deserving the bad guy is, but only that the act of killing itself makes Norwegians monsters, are you guys eschewing all killing? Or are you still “assigning different rights to live” as long as the victims in question can’t speak up in their own defense? Oh, you really got me there. I guess since we’re so speciest that we - uh - murder animals for food, we might as well abandon a penal system that gives us one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world and take up public executions, inhumane treatment of suspects and building us some dungeons. I bow to your superior arguments. ---
**Author:** ![toodlepip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@toodlepip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toodlepip)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/112 "2012-04-24T09:58:19Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Wouldn’t such a system create a situation where, once one has committed a crime, there’s literally no disincentive at all to commit any number of _lesser_ crimes? If’ I’ll get 21 years for one murder, and 21 years for one murder, 64 rapes, 16 robberies, and jaywalking, well, I’m already facing the 21, why not go hog wild? > > Hey, is Norway vegan? I mean, as long as it’s not about how deserving or not deserving the bad guy is, but only that the act of killing itself makes Norwegians monsters, are you guys eschewing all killing? Or are you still “assigning different rights to live” as long as the victims in question can’t speak up in their own defense? Yes. We’re fine with killing anything that can’t speak up for itself. Animals. Deaf-mutes. Foreigners, unless they speak Norwegian. Babies. Mime artists. People who use txtspk. We have a sliding scale. Why, how does it work in America? Do you only kill animals that are convicted of serious crimes? Do the states with no death penalty for humans not kill animals? ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/113 "2012-04-24T10:11:57Z")
> [@toodlepip](#): > > Yes. We’re fine with killing anything that can’t speak up for itself. Animals. Deaf-mutes. Foreigners, unless they speak Norwegian. Babies. Mime artists. **People who use txtspk.** (bolding mine) However, we reserve our dungeons and execution by public drawing and quartering for the txtspk’ers. They _deserve_ any inhumane treatment you can think of. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/114 "2012-04-24T10:25:20Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Wouldn’t such a system create a situation where, once one has committed a crime, there’s literally no disincentive at all to commit any number of _lesser_ crimes? If’ I’ll get 21 years for one murder, and 21 years for one murder, 64 rapes, 16 robberies, and jaywalking, well, I’m already facing the 21, why not go hog wild? Because you will be multiplying the chances of getting caught. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/115 "2012-04-24T11:50:47Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > (bolding mine) > > However, we reserve our dungeons and execution by public drawing and quartering for the txtspk’ers. They _deserve_ any inhumane treatment you can think of. I am interested in your ideas and wish to subscribe…is your newsletter available in English? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/116 "2012-04-24T18:32:10Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > If’ I’ll get 21 years for one murder, and 21 years for one murder, 64 rapes, 16 robberies, and jaywalking, well, I’m already facing the 21, why not go hog wild? _“For one murder you will get 21 years. That might not sound like much. But wait, there’s more! We’ll also include 64 rapes, 16 robberies, and jaywalking. That’s one murder, 64 rapes, 16 robberies, and jaywalking for only 21 years.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/117 "2012-04-24T22:01:05Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > _“For one murder you will get 21 years. That might not sound like much. But wait, there’s more! We’ll also include 64 rapes, 16 robberies, and jaywalking. That’s one murder, 64 rapes, 16 robberies, and jaywalking for only 21 years.”_ Actually, one murder might get you 21 years in prison. One murder plus more may well land you 21 years of detention. And that means 21 years before you get your first hearing, and if they think you’re still dangerous, 5 more years, then repeat for as long as it takes. Also, you’ll end up serving at Ila instead of a normal prison, also probably for good. So, yeah, not a smart move. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070/118 "2012-04-24T23:38:32Z")
- > [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Actually, one murder might get you 21 years in prison. > > One murder plus more may well land you 21 years of detention. And that means 21 years before you get your first hearing, and if they think you’re still dangerous, 5 more years, then repeat for as long as it takes. Also, you’ll end up serving at Ila instead of a normal prison, also probably for good. > > So, yeah, not a smart move. That’s in the fine print. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-kill-77-people-in-self-defense/619070.md?page=5)