# How can you prove you're not in denial? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 6, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568 "2003-07-06T13:56:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/1 "2003-07-06T13:56:01Z")
Someone tells you, “You’re in denial.” You respond, “No I’m not.” They retort, “See?!” So, how do you deal with it? Or, talk about rabid toads and alt/country music. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/2 "2003-07-06T14:11:20Z")
“I’ve never been to Africa. I’m in deMississippi.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/3 "2003-07-06T14:22:51Z")
Anyone who knows me, knows that while I may imbibe in inebriating beverages on occasion – and indeed, have been quite drunk – I don’t drink regularly, nor very much when I do. Still… Dad (who would almost _never_ drink) would ask me if I’m an alcoholic. I’d say that I’m not. He would reply, “The first sign of alcoholism is denial!” I would answer, "Okay. I _am_ an alcoholic. Therefore, I’m not! 😃 " (All in good fun, of course; he wasn’t serious.) Obviously I’ve never been to an AA meeting; but from what I gather, they refuse to believe that anyone who attends a meeting is _not_ an alcoholic. If you are not, then why are you at the meeting? If you say you are not an alcoholic, then you are in denial. If you have one glass of wine every night with dinner, then you are an habitual drinker. I could be wrong, of course; but these are the impressions that I have. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/4 "2003-07-06T14:35:26Z")
To start with: what’s so bad about denial? Wear it as a badge of honor. Flaunt it. Even advertise that you can train others in it. I just don’t find it a problem, and regard it most of the time as “non-speech” as if the person saying it has nothing better to say. Now, if you take a certain “I am not a crook” as a point of departure, I guess I could see the point. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/5 "2003-07-06T14:42:54Z")
Actually, denying things can be fun. For example, I usually let my hair grow for a few months, then get it cut extremely short. My cow-orkers will say, “You got a haircut.” I’ll look at them as if they’re mad and say, “No, I didn’t.” There are so many things you can deny, and it’s most fun when you are denying things that are quite blatant. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/6 "2003-07-06T15:13:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > \*\* > > Obviously I’ve never been to an AA meeting; but from what I gather, they refuse to believe that anyone who attends a meeting is _not_ an alcoholic. If you are not, then why are you at the meeting? If you say you are not an alcoholic, then you are in denial. \*\* I believe that there are some people who really arn’t alcoholics that have been forced into the system (not that I support them or anything). Say a one time DUI offender, who never drinks and drives gets behind the wheel ONE time in his/her life and gets caught, I do not consider this person to be an alcoholic. Just an idiot who made a bad decision. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/7 "2003-07-06T15:20:20Z")
Too many people get _ordered_ to go to AA by courts, or coerced into going by employers or spouses as conditions of continuing employment or marriage. Frankly, while 90% of the people who find themselves so coerced are alcoholics, it’s hard not only on the other 10% but also on AA as a whole. AA prefers _attraction_ rather than promotion, and wants to let the individuals decide whether or not they are alcoholics. But the expectation of most AA members is that if someone is attending closed AA meetings (meant for alcoholics) they should damn-well seriously be considering whether they’re an alcoholic or not. If someone just wants to learn about AA, they can go to open meetings, which welcome all. The above is just my (over)educated opinion, as I do not speak for AA as a whole. QtM, MD ---
**Author:** ![\_ceQueen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b9bd4f/32.png) [@\_ceQueen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_ceQueen)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/8 "2003-07-06T15:55:49Z")
Counterattack. “You are in denial of my not being in denial.” ---
**Author:** ![Lucretia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@Lucretia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucretia)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/9 "2003-07-06T16:39:33Z")
My mother (who really is a sweet woman, but she has some serious issues), had me convinced for many years that I had had an abusive childhood. When I grew up and began to learn what _real_ abusive childhoods were like, I realized that my childhood was really nothing worse than run-of-the-mill mildly dysfunctional. While having a conversation with her about this subject one day, I opined that my start in life was really not so bad, to which she triumphantly replied “See, that’s denial!” Grrrr. I just refuse to discuss that subject with her any more. ---
**Author:** ![AngelicGemma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/439d5e/32.png) [@AngelicGemma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelicGemma)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/10 "2003-07-06T16:46:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > \*\*Actually, denying things can be fun. For example, I usually let my hair grow for a few months, then get it cut extremely short. My cow-orkers will say, “You got a haircut.” I’ll look at them as if they’re mad and say, “No, I didn’t.” There are so many things you can deny, and it’s most fun when you are denying things that are quite blatant. \*\* My ex boyfriend did that haircut thing. It was hilarious to see people’s responces. I HATE being accused of being in denial. It’s so fustrating because you can’t prove they’re wrong! ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/11 "2003-07-06T19:37:16Z")
Well, since no one’s really helping me with the denile part… How 'bout them rabid toads? Actually, I think I will try some of the “embrace denial” ideas. Sounds like fun! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/12 "2003-07-06T19:46:37Z")
Guess I’ve missed the vast majority of rabid toads. Sound vicious, though, I will say that. Bothered much by them fellers, are you? ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/13 "2003-07-06T19:54:55Z")
A serious answer to the OP - if someone claims that you are in denial, ask them what facts would support their claim. When you have agreed upon their definition, then you marshal facts that counter their stated definition of whatever it is that you are allegedly denying. If that fails, toss a rabid toad down their skivvies. That’ll shut ‘em up! ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/14 "2003-07-06T20:00:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > Too many people get _ordered_ to go to AA by courts, or coerced into going by employers or spouses as conditions of continuing employment or marriage. Frankly, while 90% of the people who find themselves so coerced are alcoholics, it’s hard not only on the other 10% but also on AA as a whole. \*\* Now see…that would be denile. The fact that you are in a situation where either the court or your workplace thinks that you may have a drinking problem indicates that you may, in fact, have a drinking problem. In other words, stop drinking and driving, coming home from the bars drunk every night or showing up at work drunk and it won’t even be an issue. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/15 "2003-07-06T20:30:14Z")
I accompaneed (how the fetch do you spell that?) a friend to an AA meeting or two. Becuase he was down and out, on his last legs, needed a helping hand, yada yada. When the intro got to me, I stood up and said, “Hi, my name is NCB, and I’m helping a friend.” After the speechy thingy was over, and we milled around, several people tried to get me to admit to needing help and letting them sponser me or whatever they call it. I think some very good things can be done through AA, but this kind of pissed me off because they wouldn’t let go, saying I was in denial. No, I’m not in denial, I’m helping a friend! Well, we went to a couple of different places here in the city, and found one with some people who actually did listen. Yes, I know that my friend needs to deal with this stuff himself, but he might not have gone (or returned) if I hadn’t been there. Now, he’s recovering, getting his life back. And I don’t feel obligated to take him to AA because he found the real help he needed. (The feeling obligated came from years of friendship) But, those first two places with asshole dry drunks telling me I was in denial almost made him reconsider getting help. BTW, very savvy of you guys to pick up on the hidden AA rant/question in my OP. I had just seen him last night and it was on my mind this morning. ftr, he’s 6 mos clean and sober. 🙂 If I lick a rabid toad, what happens then? ---
**Author:** ![Emperor\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@Emperor\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emperor_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/16 "2003-07-06T21:08:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > \*\* > If I lick a rabid toad, what happens then? \*\* You’ll have an overwhelming urge to listen to alt/country. At least, that’s how I got started. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/17 "2003-07-06T21:26:08Z")
I deny ever posting in this thread. Your penchant for hijacking has infected me! And I’ll deny any responsibility for my own actions. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/18 "2003-07-06T21:30:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by j.c. \* > \*\*A serious answer to the OP - if someone claims that you are in denial, ask them what facts would support their claim. When you have agreed upon their definition, then you marshal facts that counter their stated definition of whatever it is that you are allegedly denying. \*\* Yeah. The claim, “You’re in denial,” is a positive statement that needs to be proven. In other words, the person making the claim needs to prove that you suffer from condition X, and when you assert otherwise you are, by definition, in denial. Example: Bob: Jim, you’re an alcoholic. Jim: No I’m not. Bob: You’re in denial. Jim: Prove it. Bob: You drank until you puked four times this month. Jim: Is that all your evidence? Bob: Yes. Jim: What symptoms define an alcoholic? Bob: Alcoholism is a chronic illness characterized by the habitual intake of alcohol, where the alcohol use is to the degree that it interferes with physical or mental health, or with normal social or work behavior. Some symptoms include: [ul][li]An increasing tolerance to the effects of alcohol. [_]A growing preoccupation with or interest in drinking, drinking alone or drinking before an activity where there will be drinking. [_]A person will dispute there is a problem. This symptom is called denial. [_]Hiding alcohol or sneaking drinks. [_]Gulping the first few drinks. [_]Wanting to drink more, or longer, than the rest of the crowd. [_]And, losing control of drinking, leading to attempts to control it (“going on the wagon”).[/ul][/li] Jim: And you agree that I manifest none of those symptoms, merely that I drank until I puked four times this month, correct? Bob: Correct. Jim: Since I exhibit none of the symptoms of alcoholism, I am therefore not an alcoholic. You merely don’t like seeing me drink until I puke, correct? Bob: Correct. Jim: Therefore I am not in denial, am I? Bob: Correct, you are not in denial. Still, it doesn’t seem healthy to drink until you puke four times a month. Jim: Fair enough. However, I enjoy drinking until I puke, and as long as doing so doesn’t become a case of alcoholism, I feel that whatever health risks may arise from it, the benefits I receive in terms of enjoyment are greater. Bob: Well, I still don’t like it. Jim: Acknowledged. Now that we’ve got that out of the way, let’s discuss all that smack you’ve been shooting up… ---
**Author:** ![Audrey\_Levins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Audrey\_Levins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Audrey_Levins)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/19 "2003-07-06T22:00:37Z")
'Da Nile. It ain’t just a river in Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568/20 "2003-07-06T22:19:06Z")
[Lori Morgan] Just call me Cleopatra Everybody, 'cause I’m the Queen of Denial [/LM] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-can-you-prove-youre-not-in-denial/186568.md?page=2)