# How close is Saudi from collapse? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2004, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-is-saudi-from-collapse/259093 "2004-08-09T21:17:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-is-saudi-from-collapse/259093/21 "2004-08-14T02:18:24Z")
That would be half of all the local governments. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-is-saudi-from-collapse/259093/22 "2004-08-14T02:44:52Z")
But how does this percentage compare to 10 years ago? 20 years ago? ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-is-saudi-from-collapse/259093/23 "2004-08-14T14:48:55Z")
> [@kniz](#): > > But they run schools that teach the Wahhabi principles in their country and finance such schools all over the world (even here). They finance terrorism and other activities that make us ask if they are really our friends. I was simply pointing out that the tie between the Saudi family and Wahhabism is stronger than many of us understand it to be. It was the fact that Wahhabism provided the Saudis with a religious foundation that brought about the Saudi dynasty. They may like our way of life, but they know in the end which side their bread is buttered on. The game they are playing is called “politics” (i.e. The often internally conflicting interrelationships among people in a society.) Well, I take your point(s) but might have a different slant on some of their activities. As I mentioned earleir, there are many thousands of princes and god knows how many princesses so generalizing about their activities is dangerous. When you talk about “they run schools” etc. Which “they” are you talking about? The clerics run the schools, obviously. The royals simply pay them off. I would bet money that the royals don’t give a damn _what_ the clerics do with the money as long as they will publicly praise the generous royal as a religious benefactor. As far as the royals liking our way of life but knowing which side their bread is buttered on. The royals do not lead our kind of life. You would probably find it difficult to comprehend the kind of life many of them lead. I certainly do, and I live here and interact with them occasionally. The royals lead their own kind of life which has less to do with adopting Western styles and more to do with doing any damn thing they want to whenever they feel like it. The arrogance is incredible. Average Jor Saudi doesn’t like that any better than people in the US would. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-is-saudi-from-collapse/259093/24 "2004-08-14T15:20:46Z")
These will be the first elections in the Kingdom’s history. Up to now there have been no elected government officials. Heck, the schools do not even have student governments. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-is-saudi-from-collapse/259093/25 "2004-08-14T16:56:13Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > These will be the first elections in the Kingdom’s history. Up to now there have been no elected government officials. Heck, the schools do not even have student governments. Then it is progress of a kind, and maybe a good sign. The royals are obviously terrified of democracy, and aware that their people have absolutely no experience with it – yet they also know they will come under constant pressure from the West to democratize. So they’re trying it out on an experimental basis under safe, controlled conditions. If a few years go by and these new elected local councils do not become a voice for Wahhabi extremists and other anti-royalist hotheads, then maybe they’ll allow elected councils to the rest of the local governments, and maybe, a few years after that, elected parliaments for the provinces, and maybe, a few years after that, an elected national parliament. In 10 or 20 years SA might be as democratic as Jordan is now – and without going through a revolution that might put the Wahhabi extremists in power. As for women voting – that might come last but I’m sure it will come. Remember, we had what we considered democracy in this country from 1789, and we didn’t adopt the 19th Amendment until 1920. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-is-saudi-from-collapse/259093/26 "2004-08-15T00:55:48Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > These will be the first elections in the Kingdom’s history. Up to now there have been no elected government officials. Heck, the schools do not even have student governments. Certainly this is proof of some sort of Democracy movement. Is it not? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The royals are obviously terrified of democracy, and aware that their people have absolutely no experience with it – yet they also know they will come under constant pressure from the West to democratize. So they’re trying it out on an experimental basis under safe, controlled conditions. I think I have heard that what the Sauds would like to go to is a sort of constitutional monarchy. Something similar to England’s model. Perhaps with more power, or at least not devolving into a total lack of power for a long time. But it seems like it may be an odd case of democratic changes being instututed from the top. I agree with the rest of your post, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-is-saudi-from-collapse/259093/27 "2004-08-15T01:11:15Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Certainly this is proof of some sort of Democracy movement. Is it not? Based on what **Paul** has said, it sounds like they’re more concerned with keeping the rest of the world off their backs. Whether they’re having elections or not isn’t the most relevant thing. Who’s running? Is there anyone with an opinion the royals might not like? I sort of doubt it. A more accurate test of their goals with regard to voting would be to see what happens if a candidate they don’t like does well (not even winning, but getting a sign of support). Since we’re only dealing with stuff on the local, not national, level, saying there’s a democracy movement or that the Sauds are really giving up some power seems premature. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-is-saudi-from-collapse/259093/28 "2004-08-15T04:01:04Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > I think I have heard that what the Sauds would like to go to is a sort of constitutional monarchy. Something similar to England’s model. Or maybe Jordan’s model. Jordan has a two-house parliament – the Chamber of Deputies is elected, but the Senate is appointed by the king. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-is-saudi-from-collapse/259093/29 "2004-08-15T04:22:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Based on what **Paul** has said, it sounds like they’re more concerned with keeping the rest of the world off their backs. Right. but that’s ok so long as the things they do to keep us off their backs leads to more democracy or inclusiveness. > [@](#): > > Whether they’re having elections or not isn’t the most relevant thing. It is if they have never had them. I understand that in order to qualify for “full democracy”, whatever that is, exactly, requires fair and free elections. But elections are a start. > [@](#): > > Who’s running? Is there anyone with an opinion the royals might not like? I sort of doubt it. A more accurate test of their goals with regard to voting would be to see what happens if a candidate they don’t like does well (not even winning, but getting a sign of support). I agree entirely that these are valid and necessary questions. > [@](#): > > Since we’re only dealing with stuff on the local, not national, level, saying there’s a democracy movement or that the Sauds are really giving up some power seems premature. I also agree that any assesment is premature. I am merely trying to figure out if there is any movement at all. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-is-saudi-from-collapse/259093/30 "2004-08-15T04:27:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Or maybe Jordan’s model. Jordan has a two-house parliament – the Chamber of Deputies is elected, but the Senate is appointed by the king. But wasn’t that England’s model not long ago? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-is-saudi-from-collapse/259093/31 "2004-08-15T04:52:22Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > It is if they have never had them. I understand that in order to qualify for “full democracy”, whatever that is, exactly, requires fair and free elections. But elections are a start. It could be a start. On the other hand, Saddam Hussein held elections. The big question is the diversity of opinion the government allows. I’d really love to hear more detail about these elections- what are the positions, what are the issues, that kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-is-saudi-from-collapse/259093/32 "2004-08-15T06:35:40Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > But wasn’t that England’s model not long ago? Not exactly – most members of the House of Lords were hereditary peers, plus a few bishops and judges. The sovereign could create new peers at any time, but most of them were hereditary – meaning, they were a power effectively independent of the crown. The House of Lords was stripped of most of its legislative powers around 1911, I believe, and since then the Commons has had the power to enact legislation on its own, the Lords having only a temporary delaying power. And then Tony Blair came around and sharply reduced the membership of the Lords. In any case, in Britain the sovereign has not actually wielded effective political power since George III – while, at present, King Abdullah of Jordan does wield considerable political power. That’s probably the model the Sauds are looking to, if any. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-is-saudi-from-collapse/259093.md?page=1)