# How close run was the Battle of Waterloo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-run-was-the-battle-of-waterloo/777325 "2017-01-16T18:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-run-was-the-battle-of-waterloo/777325/21 "2017-01-17T15:08:10Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So is it fair to say that while Wellington was competent, even good, he mostly won through luck? > > Seems he needed to get all the dice rolls and he did and even then it was close. Are you kidding me - he handed Napoleon his arse all through the Peninsula War, knowing exactly when to engage and when to hang fire. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-run-was-the-battle-of-waterloo/777325/22 "2017-01-17T17:04:16Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > A short-term defense was important, but then? I am not a student of this period in European history, so please forgive this potentially stupid question: Waterloo, so what? That is, if Napoleon had won at Waterloo, what is the best he could have expected going forward? Would the rest of Europe plus Britain been so weakened by this defeat that he would have been able to re-establish and defend his rule in France from all opponents domestic and foreign? Would his former satellite states have reverted to supporting him? It’s hard for me to see a future for France under Napoleon after all of his and their previous losses. He still had to contend with the very large Armies of the Austrians and the Russians who were still moving up West when Waterloo occured. At best he could hope for a repeat of the 1814 campaign. Which was, stand, thrash enemies, retreat in face of overwhelming numbers, repeat on a different axis, and continue until you are out of space. His aim seems to have been the same as in the early part of the 1813 campaign, which was to go on the offensive and inflict casualties inside enemy territory. Unrealistic IMO. The problem was that _France_ could no longer fight, she was throughly exhausted by about 25 years of war and revolution. [QUOTE=up the junction] Are you kidding me - he handed Napoleon his arse all through the Peninsula War, knowing exactly when to engage and when to hang fire. [/QUOTE] Never faced Napoleon in Iberia. Or anywhere else except Waterloo ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-run-was-the-battle-of-waterloo/777325/23 "2017-01-17T17:24:09Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Personally, I think something changed around then and the change was greater professionalism from Napoleon’s opponents on land. Probably. And also a greater determination to get rid of him (and of post-revolutionary France in general). The time wasn’t anymore to sign a separate peace treaty because you had been handed your ass by Napoleon a couple times. And on top of it, he had already beaten thoroughly once. I too don’t believe a different outcome at Waterloo would have changed anything. Napoleon won plenty of battles in 1814, and none of it mattered in the end, he still lost the campaign. It would have been the same if he had won at Waterloo. Napoleon was defeated in the campaign of Russia and in Leipzig. Waterloo was essentially irrelevant. It just matters symbolically because it was the last battle he fought and lost. Also emphatized because a British general was in charge, which makes it particularly important for British people and as a result for American people because they’re culturally more familiar with British history (look at how often the sideshow of the peninsular war is mentioned on this board by comparison with the real decisive campaigns in the rest of Europe). ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-run-was-the-battle-of-waterloo/777325/24 "2017-01-17T17:35:51Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Probably. And also a greater determination to get rid of him (and of post-revolutionary France in general). The time wasn’t anymore to sign a separate peace treaty because you had been handed your ass by Napoleon a couple times. And on top of it, he had already beaten thoroughly once. > > I too don’t believe a different outcome at Waterloo would have changed anything. Napoleon won plenty of battles in 1814, and none of it mattered in the end, he still lost the campaign. It would have been the same if he had won at Waterloo. > > Napoleon was defeated in the campaign of Russia and in Leipzig. Waterloo was essentially irrelevant. It just matters symbolically because it was the last battle he fought and lost. > > Also emphatized because a British general was in charge, which makes it particularly important for British people and as a result for American people because they’re culturally more familiar with British history (look at how often the sideshow of the peninsular war is mentioned on this board by comparison with the real decisive campaigns in the rest of Europe). I know you have, _different_ opinions with respect to the Peninsula War ;); but I cannot agree with your assessment of Waterloo. Yes, France was ultimatkey beaten by the battles on 1813/14, which of course happened because of the Russian debacle etc etc. Waterloo’s military impact was fairly limited; France still maintained powerful field forces. Its political and diplomatic outcomes were far reaching. Before the 100 Days, the Congress of Vienna had been deadlocked and the parties there saw Britain with a wary eye. Post Waterloo, which was seen as a British victory, the final settlement was one which was much more favorable to Britain. It left France a much more reduced power than Talleyrand had managed to obtain earlier and confirmed the transfer of lucrative overseas colonies to Britain. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-run-was-the-battle-of-waterloo/777325/25 "2017-01-17T17:57:03Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Never faced Napoleon in Iberia. Or anywhere else except Waterloo And vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-run-was-the-battle-of-waterloo/777325/26 "2017-01-17T18:24:45Z")
How bout that - never knew. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-run-was-the-battle-of-waterloo/777325/27 "2017-01-18T01:55:08Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > How bout that - never knew. Junction (and others), may I recommend _Wellington: The Years of the Sword_, by Elizabeth Longford. Covers Wellington’s campaigns and battles in Spain along with a large dose of Waterloo. Detailed but a very pleasant read, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-run-was-the-battle-of-waterloo/777325/28 "2017-01-18T15:28:07Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Far from it. > > I do however think Wellington is given too much credit as the one guy who could defeat Napoleon (since he was the one guy who defeated Napoleon). Seems to me Wellington was a solid and competent commander who needed a fair bit of luck on his side and got it. > > Luck in war certainly counts. A win is a win. But if we replayed this battle ten times who would your money be on? For a recent academic (positive) assessment of Wellington as a general and how Waterloo fitted in to his list of battles see [Huw Davies’s article](http://bjmh.org.uk/index.php/bjmh/article/view/50) in the _[British Journal for Military History](http://bjmh.org.uk/index.php/bjmh/index)_. Essentially he doesn’t see Waterloo as Wellington’s “greatest” battle - he argues that Assaye 13 years before is the battle that actually shows Wellington’s brilliance. The same issue of the BJMH also has an interesting exchange of letters between two military historians (Andrew Roberts and Charles Esdaile) on “[Was Napoleon Great?](http://bjmh.org.uk/index.php/bjmh/article/view/58)” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-run-was-the-battle-of-waterloo/777325.md?page=1)