# How close to fascism is Russia, really ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141 "2015-10-10T13:22:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/1 "2015-10-10T13:22:15Z")
There’s a lot of shit-flinging about Russia, and if we leave out the obvious propaganda memes of the large news services - he’s a Hitler, he wants to eat your children etc. etc., what have we got left ? Anyone listening to someone like Alexandr Dugin, or the reactionary church clerics, is left in no doubt that there is definitely fascist activity and thinking in Russia, but how far does it extend ? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/2 "2015-10-10T13:37:52Z")
How close are we? ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/3 "2015-10-10T14:07:47Z")
There seems to be something in the Russian culture that is more authoritarian-friendly than in a lot of countries. I’m sure that limited government _could_ work there–but they would have to work harder at it than some countries. The whole of Russian history, even in modern times, is one dictator after another, some of which were benevolent. Freedom is messy and in some senses disorderly. Some people prefer living under a system that makes certain choices for you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/4 "2015-10-10T14:10:14Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > How close are we? Not any closer than the last time someone brought this up in GD. Or the time before that, or… ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/5 "2015-10-10T14:21:59Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Anyone listening to someone like Alexandr Dugin, or the reactionary church clerics, is left in no doubt that there is definitely fascist activity and thinking in Russia, but how far does it extend ? The threat of fascism in non-existent in Russia, or, if it exists, it’s far less than the threat of fascism in the Unites States. Let me give you an example: there was a Jewish pogrom in Crown Heights area of New York City in 1991. Jewish stores were looted, marches were made with slogans such as “Death to the Jews”, Jews were beaten and killed in the streets. The main ideologue of the pogrom, one Al Sharpton, visited The White House at least [73 times](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2973067/Al-Sharpton-returns-White-House-73RD-visit-Obama-discuss-problems-facing-minorities.html) since 2009. I kid you not. The main ideologue of Jewish pogroms has basically unlimited access to the White House. This, of course, should come no surprise, seeing that another noted anti-Semite, one Jesse Jackson, is also a close ally of the current US President. Needless to say, President Putin’s behavior contrasts sharply with what’s been described above. President Putin fully supports the Jewish community in Russia and has excellent relationship with Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/6 "2015-10-10T14:46:39Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > The threat of fascism in non-existent in Russia, or, if it exists, it’s far less than the threat of fascism in the Unites States. > Let me give you an example: there was a Jewish pogrom in Crown Heights area of New York City in 1991. Jewish stores were looted, marches were made with slogans such as “Death to the Jews”, Jews were beaten and killed in the streets. > The main ideologue of the pogrom, one Al Sharpton, visited The White House at least [73 times](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2973067/Al-Sharpton-returns-White-House-73RD-visit-Obama-discuss-problems-facing-minorities.html) since 2009. I kid you not. The main ideologue of Jewish pogroms has basically unlimited access to the White House. > This, of course, should come no surprise, seeing that another noted anti-Semite, one Jesse Jackson, is also a close ally of the current US President. > > Needless to say, President Putin’s behavior contrasts sharply with what’s been described above. President Putin fully supports the Jewish community in Russia and has excellent relationship with Israel. What you are talking about is anti-semitism, not fascism. A fascist ideology does not necessarily have to be anti-semitic. In fact the original fascists in Italy adopted an anti-semitic ideology only very late in the game, mostly to please their anti-semitic allies in Germany. At that time (in 1938) Mussolini also claimed that fascism had always been anti-semitic, but that can hardly be called true. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/7 "2015-10-10T14:54:42Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > There’s a lot of shit-flinging about Russia, and if we leave out the obvious propaganda memes of the large news services - he’s a Hitler, he wants to eat your children etc. etc., what have we got left ? > > Anyone listening to someone like Alexandr Dugin, or the reactionary church clerics, is left in no doubt that there is definitely fascist activity and thinking in Russia, but how far does it extend ? Dugin holds respected positions in the Russian government and is literally a fascist. Russia would probably become fascist if Putin determined that it served his interests. > [@Alkash](#): > > The threat of fascism in non-existent in Russia, or, if it exists, it’s far less than the threat of fascism in the Unites States. > Let me give you an example: there was a Jewish pogrom in Crown Heights area of New York City in 1991. Jewish stores were looted, marches were made with slogans such as “Death to the Jews”, Jews were beaten and killed in the streets. > The main ideologue of the pogrom, one Al Sharpton, visited The White House at least [73 times](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2973067/Al-Sharpton-returns-White-House-73RD-visit-Obama-discuss-problems-facing-minorities.html) since 2009. I kid you not. The main ideologue of Jewish pogroms has basically unlimited access to the White House. > This, of course, should come no surprise, seeing that another noted anti-Semite, one Jesse Jackson, is also a close ally of the current US President. > > Needless to say, President Putin’s behavior contrasts sharply with what’s been described above. President Putin fully supports the Jewish community in Russia and has excellent relationship with Israel. Anti-Semitic looting is not fascism. Fascism is militarism, extreme nationalism, ethnocentrism, and a societal focus on strength and power. People stealing stuff doesn’t even come close. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/8 "2015-10-10T14:57:34Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > People stealing stuff doesn’t even come close. Does people killing other people, because the other people are Jews, comes close? Does providing ideological base for “Death to the Jews” marches comes close? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/9 "2015-10-10T15:05:03Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > Does people killing other people, because the other people are Jews, comes close? > Does providing ideological base for “Death to the Jews” marches comes close? You are turning things around here. You should ask: Does \*not \*killing Jews mean that you are not a fascist? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/10 "2015-10-10T15:06:16Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > How close are we? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not any closer than the last time someone brought this up in GD. Or the time before that, or… Trump & his Tea Party followers disturb me. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/11 "2015-10-10T15:08:06Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Trump & his Tea Party followers disturb me. Are they known to advocate one of the main tenets of fascism–a virulent anti-Semitism, such as that exhibited by major players of Democratic Party? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/12 "2015-10-10T15:12:53Z")
That’s not a tenet of fascism. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/13 "2015-10-10T15:19:05Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > Are they known to advocate one of the main tenets of fascism–a virulent anti-Semitism, such as that exhibited by major players of Democratic Party? Since you seem to be a little unclear as to what fascism actually is, a glance at [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism)cannot hurt: > [@](#): > > Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Influenced by national syndicalism, fascism originated in Italy during World War I, in opposition to liberalism, Marxism, and Anarchism. Fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum. Anti-semitism is not mentioned, because fascism was not anti-semitic. In fact a number of Italian fascists were Jews - even one of Mussolini’s lovers, Margherita Sarfatti, propaganda adviser of the National Fascist Party was a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/14 "2015-10-10T15:22:02Z")
Well, the difference between Nazism and Fascism seems mostly an academic question to me, since the most influential Nazist country in history was also Fascist, but sure, point taken… With that in mind, how close is the US to Nazism? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/15 "2015-10-10T15:23:52Z")
I wouldn’t say fascism in the sense of a totalitarian ideology. It’s more a form of caudillismo: _apparently_ strong autocrat on a white horse, but some suppressed struggles going on underneath, and a lot of potential for political instability. Putin is riding a whole series of tigers in the form of various oligarchical clans, and a level of public support that isn’t much more than a glum and tepid acceptance that there’s no sign of a valid alternative, but there is a not always suppressed groundswell of outrage at persisent corruption and inefficiency in ordinary government services. Think somewhere between the later years of Franco’s Spain and Peron’s Argentina. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/16 "2015-10-10T15:26:43Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > Well, the difference between Nazism and Fascism seems mostly an academic question to me, since the most influential Nazist country in history was also Fascist, but sure, point taken… > With that in mind, how close is the US to Nazism? Not at all. You really need to learn a lot about politics. You’re throwing words around when you clearly don’t know their meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/17 "2015-10-10T15:36:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Not at all. What do you mean? Don’t examples provided above demonstrate that avowed anti-Semites are enjoying close relationship with the current US President? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/18 "2015-10-10T15:56:39Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > What do you mean? Don’t examples provided above demonstrate that avowed anti-Semites are enjoying close relationship with the current US President? Well, what you seem to have here is a minister who made anti-semitic comments during a race riot 24 years ago and who now is an adviser to the White House. I can understand why you do not like that - but if you are under the impression that this makes the situation in the US today in any way comparable to the situation in Nazi Germany, you probably failed history class. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/19 "2015-10-10T16:04:41Z")
Meh. You guys are just arguing over how to define “fascism”. If the OP’s question is rewritten as “how close is Russia to a kleptocratic thugocracy where the dictator routinely sics law enforcement (including assailants and assassins) and a biased judiciary on his personal enemies and rivals in a bid to reinforce his own power and the wealth and power of those he favours”, I’d say “pretty darn close.” ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/20 "2015-10-10T16:12:56Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > What you are talking about is anti-semitism, not fascism. A fascist ideology does not necessarily have to be anti-semitic. In fact the original fascists in Italy adopted an anti-semitic ideology only very late in the game, mostly to please their anti-semitic allies in Germany. At that time (in 1938) Mussolini also claimed that fascism had always been anti-semitic, but that can hardly be called true. One of the big problems with the F-word, it means so many things to so many people. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141.md?page=2)