# How close to fascism is Russia, really ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141 "2015-10-10T13:22:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/61 "2015-10-10T22:13:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Obama has never struck as especially delusional, so probably not. Ok, so will this be the fair summation of your position? Axelrod “probably” never explained to President Obama that Al Sharpton was an ideologue of a Jewish pogrom. President Obama himself also “probably” doesn’t know that Al Sharpton was an ideologue of a Jewish pogrom. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/62 "2015-10-10T22:20:11Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > Yes, I call an event, where Jews were specifically targeted for beatings and murder because of their ethicity, their property was looted, and marches were held with slogans such as “Death to Jews”, a pogrom. > As was explained above, the main ideologue of this specific pogrom was Al Sharpton, a close advisor to President Obama. > As was also explained above, Al Sharpton is far from the only avowed anti-Semite, who are close to President Obama. > The only argument in defense of this travesty I’ve heard so far is “Well, President Obama also has Jewish advisors, so there!”, which is a moral equivalent of “I’m not racist, in fact, some of my best friends are black, but…” While the Crown Heights riots were a tragedy, calling them a pogrom is a gross exaggeration and an insult to the Jews who died in actual pogroms. Moreover, while I’m not a fan a of Al Sharpton, Yankel Rosenbaum, the only Jew killed in this so-called pogrom, was murdered prior to his infamous “diamond merchants” speech. Please stop pissing on his grave as well as that of Gavin Cato. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/63 "2015-10-10T22:22:54Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > Does their hostility to Muslims include doing things like looting Muslim-owned shops, killing Muslims, and marching with slogans like “Death to Muslims” in a similar manner to that of one of he closest advisors of the President Obama? Might start tomorrow or Monday. > **[Armed protests planned at US mosques: 'The world is saying no to Islam'](https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/armed-protests-planned-us-mosques-the-world-saying-no-islam-msna700301)** > > Ben Carson is opposed to a Muslim in the White House. But on Saturday a anti-Muslim group hoped to go further, hounding Islam out of America itself. [http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2015/10/10/antiislam-protests-to-be-staged-across](http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2015/10/10/antiislam-protests-to-be-staged-across) ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/64 "2015-10-10T22:34:48Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Might start tomorrow or Monday. > > [Armed protests planned at US mosques: 'The world is saying no to Islam'](http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/armed-protests-planned-us-mosques-the-world-saying-no-islam) > > [http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2015/10/10/antiislam-protests-to-be-staged-across](http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2015/10/10/antiislam-protests-to-be-staged-across) They start killing Muslims on Monday? Once they do, please provide us a link. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/65 "2015-10-10T22:41:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > While the Crown Heights riots were a tragedy, calling them a pogrom is a gross exaggeration and an insult to the Jews who died in actual pogroms. Tell that to John Taylor, who correctly [points out](http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/what_pogrom_wrought) that "“Not only were Jews singled out for attack — a necessary but not a sufficient condition for a pogrom — but just as happened during Kristallnacht, the anti-Semitic rampage seemed to the Jews on the streets to have official sanction. Police on patrol in Crown Heights, threatened with suspension if they moved from their designated positions, at times did nothing to stop the violence they observed. It is a frightening enough experience to be in danger and feel that the people who are supposed to protect you are present but will not protect you.” > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Moreover, while I’m not a fan a of Al Sharpton, Yankel Rosenbaum, the only Jew killed Ah, yes! There was only one Jew killed! Yippey! Agreed, let’s classify it as “small-scale riot”, as per your and Ramira insistence. I’m sure as Yankel Rosenbaum was being stabbed to death for the crime of being a Jew, his final thoughts were all about how his experience was so much more pleasant than that of other Jews, who were killed in similar “riots” in other places and times in history. Is there no end to insane bigotry and rationalization in this topic? “Well, President Obama has a Jewish advisor, so that kinda evens out him having an avowed anti-Semite or two as other advisors. In fact, they’re not even avowed anti-Semites…They’re kinda casual, run-of-the-mill anti-Semites”. “It wasn’t really a pogrom, it was a small riot, the people who got beaten and killed, and whose property was destroyed, should be careful calling their experience a “pogrom”” ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/66 "2015-10-10T22:52:15Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > You’re not providing quote I asked you to provide. Now that must be the lamest attempt at avoiding to answer an unpleasant question in a long time. You need a quote to remember your own question? Here you are: > [@Alkash](#): > > With that in mind, how close is the US to Nazism? To wich you received this answer: > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Not at all. > > You really need to learn a lot about politics. You’re throwing words around when you clearly don’t know their meaning. Your reaction to that was: > [@Alkash](#): > > What do you mean? Don’t examples provided above demonstrate that avowed anti-Semites are enjoying close relationship with the current US President? Enough quotes for you? Apparently you do not understand how **Little Nemo** can arrive at the conclusion that the US are not close to Nazism at all. (And apparently telling you about Nazism did not really help there either.) ---
**Author:** ![sweet\_chemist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@sweet\_chemist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweet_chemist)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/67 "2015-10-10T23:05:32Z")
Well acording to the definition of fascism by **Alkash** , Russia is very close to it. A quick look at this [wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia) has some interesting quotes. > [@](#): > > Antisemitism is one of the most common expressions of xenophobia in post-Soviet Russia, even among some groups of politicians. Despite stipulations against fomenting hatred based on ethnic or religious grounds (Article 282 of Russian Federation Penal Code), antisemitic pronouncements, speeches and articles are not uncommon in Russia, and there are a large number of antisemitic neo-Nazi groups in the republics of the former Soviet Union, leading Pravda to declare in 2002 that “Anti-Semitism is booming in Russia”. > [@](#): > > In January 2005, a group of 15 Duma members demanded that Judaism and Jewish organizations be banned from Russia. In June, 500 prominent Russians, including some 20 members of the nationalist Rodina party, demanded that the state prosecutor investigate ancient Jewish texts as “anti-Russian” and ban Judaism. An investigation was in fact launched, but halted after an international outcry. > [@](#): > > In Russia, both historical and contemporary antisemitic materials are frequently published. > [@](#): > > Antisemitic incidents, mostly addressed to extremist and nationalists groups, have ranged from random acts of violence against Jews and vandalism acts against Jewish institutions to the detonation of explosives in Jewish communities. Most of the antisemitic incidents are against Jewish cemeteries and building (community centers and synagogues) such as the assault against the Jewish community’s center in Perm on March 2013 and the attack on Jewish nursery school in Volgograd on August 2013. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/68 "2015-10-11T00:10:10Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > Ok, so will this be the fair summation of your position? > > Axelrod “probably” never explained to President Obama that Al Sharpton was an ideologue of a Jewish pogrom. > President Obama himself also “probably” doesn’t know that Al Sharpton was an ideologue of a Jewish pogrom. Neither assertions are true, so Axelrod and Obama probably don’t believe them. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/69 "2015-10-11T00:17:59Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Anyone listening to someone like Alexandr Dugin, or the reactionary church clerics, is left in no doubt that there is definitely fascist activity and thinking in Russia, but how far does it extend ? Nationalism and patriotism in Russia is very strong. Being Nationalist Conservadox Jew is one of the reasons I do not fit into Russian society. In many ways Russian society is much much better then USA society. There is no liberal intolerance. Russian penal system is much much more humane then US penal system. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/70 "2015-10-11T00:19:44Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > There seems to be something in the Russian culture that is more authoritarian-friendly than in a lot of countries. Many Russians and Russian Jews have a very strong phobia for anything authoritarian. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/71 "2015-10-11T00:25:19Z")
After 70 years of Socialism many people from Russia would become physically sick from any authoritarian leftist agenda. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/72 "2015-10-11T01:13:07Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > After 70 years of Socialism many people from Russia would become physically sick from any authoritarian leftist agenda. Socialism and communism are not nearly the same thing. There have been decades of socialism in Europe, along with a lot of prosperity. It’s communism that was the problem in Russia, not socialism. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/73 "2015-10-11T01:13:39Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > Ok, so will this be the fair summation of your position? No, my position is that calling the Crown Heights riots a pogrom is absurd and perverse. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/74 "2015-10-11T01:20:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Socialism and communism are not nearly the same thing. There have been decades of socialism in Europe, along with a lot of prosperity. It’s communism that was the problem in Russia, not socialism. I am 100% for Scandinavian Socialism – they really care for people. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/75 "2015-10-11T01:47:07Z")
This has gotten bogged down in arguments over what fascism is and whether antisemitism is an integral part of it. I prefer to say that Russia is now an autocratic state based on nationalism. It is likely to stay that way for many years to come, under Putin and his successors (who may well be worse than Putin). And the Russian people as a whole seem to like it that way. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/76 "2015-10-11T01:55:20Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I prefer to say that Russia is now an autocratic state based on nationalism. It is likely to stay that way for many years to come, under Putin and his successors (who may well be worse than Putin). And the Russian people as a whole seem to like it that way. After 70 years with experience of liberalism in the form of Communism, many people in Russia became very conservative. Communist Party of Russian Federation never gets more then 20% of votes, while Vladimir Putin gets at least 60% in all elections. Many liberals still do not believe anyone who opposes them should have free speech. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/77 "2015-10-11T02:20:26Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > After 70 years with experience of liberalism in the form of Communism, many people in Russia became very conservative. > > Communist Party of Russian Federation never gets more then 20% of votes, while Vladimir Putin gets at least 60% in all elections. > > Many liberals still do not believe anyone who opposes them should have free speech. Liberalism and communism don’t have much to do with each other. So far your characterization of liberals and liberalism leads me to believe that you know very little about it except the fantasy-liberalism that comes from right-wing radio and similar media. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/78 "2015-10-11T02:51:19Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Just a way to say, that the vision of a Strong Russia surrounded by obedient vassal states and feared by adversaries, standing spiritually/ideologically firm against external “decadence”, with a cronyist privileged elite atop which a Strong Leader you must flatter, seems to be something that has transcended political eras. In the Russian case you substitute Marxist-Leninist politicoeconomics with “Third Rome” theology or Russian nationalism or panslavism depending on the times but that only changes the language of the discourse. But also in that sense it’s not that different from clientelist empires going back to Rome so it’s not even a particularly Russian thing except insofar as it’s more visible due to Russia’s size and position of relative power. > > Though I must admit, the common everyday usage has rendered “fascism” into a shorthand for almost anything in a regime that is authoritarian/totalitarian but not marxist-leninist, and in some cases just anything that is illiberal, or even just anything political they don’t like. “Though I must admit, the common everyday usage has rendered “fascism” into a shorthand for almost anything in a regime that is authoritarian/totalitarian but not marxist-leninist, and in some cases just anything that is illiberal, or even just anything political they don’t like.” Yeah I hate that. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/79 "2015-10-11T02:54:23Z")
Suspecting secret Nashi agents want to throw off debate about Putin by resurrecting old Al Sharpton fights. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/80 "2015-10-11T06:22:55Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > After 70 years of Socialism many people from Russia would become physically sick from any authoritarian leftist agenda. Um, no. Russians are (with good reason) very hostile to _liberalism_. They’re not particularly hostile to ‘authoritarian leftism’: a large plurality of people would prefer the communist Soviet system to either western capitalist democracy or what they have now. Liberalism and communism are two very different things, and the second one is much more popular (in Russia) than the former. From the Levada Centre: > **[Russian Faith in \\](https://www.unz.com/akarlin/western-democracy-in-russia/)** > > This will probably be of no surprise to people who follow Russian sentiments, but still worth pointing out that according to the latest polls by Levada - an independent polling agency headed by pro-Western liberals - support for this thing called \\ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141.md?page=5)