# How close to fascism is Russia, really ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141 "2015-10-10T13:22:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/81 "2015-10-11T06:57:44Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Um, no. Russians are (with good reason) very hostile to _liberalism_. They’re not particularly hostile to ‘authoritarian leftism’: a large plurality of people would prefer the communist Soviet system to either western capitalist democracy or what they have now. Liberalism and communism are two very different things, and the second one is much more popular (in Russia) than the former. > > From the Levada Centre: > > [Russian Faith in "Western-Style Democracy" Reaches All-Time Low, by Anatoly Karlin - The Unz Review](http://www.unz.com/akarlin/western-democracy-in-russia/) Interestingly what that chart tells us is that at one point in 2012 western democracy was as popular as any other, but after Ukraine it’s dropped to it’s worst for twenty years. Change their minds a lot don’t they ? ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/82 "2015-10-11T07:02:00Z")
So is there a case to be made that the Ukraine coup has been counterproductive and simply hardened Russian attitudes as they were beginning to soften ? ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/83 "2015-10-11T07:16:02Z")
> **[Why the Kremlin Hates Levada Center](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/archive/why-the-kremlin-hates-levada-center)** > > The older undemocratic regimes become, the more mistakes their leaders tend to make. > [@](#): > > “At present, Levada serves as an anchor. If the results of other pollsters drift too far in the Kremlin’s favor, they risk losing their reputation. Were there no Levada Center, even Putin’s political operatives would have to wonder whether the friendly pollsters were slanting results to ingratiate themselves. > Conversely, when Levada polls show, as they have consistently, that more than 50 percent of Russians approve of Putin’s actions, this is believable. The fact that Levada predicted a vote of more than 60 percent for Putin in the 2012 presidential election did more to legitimize his return to the Kremlin than any glitzy inauguration.” [http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-s-approval-rating-creeps-up-again-poll-shows/516580.html](http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-s-approval-rating-creeps-up-again-poll-shows/516580.html) > [@](#): > > “Eighty-six percent of respondents to a poll conducted between Feb. 20 and 23 said they approved of Putin’s actions as president. Two years ago, that figure stood at a comparatively meager 65 percent. > The poll also revealed strong support for the path Russia is currently on. While 29 percent of respondents said Russia was generally headed down the wrong path, 54 percent said Russia is moving in the right direction.” So, either the government has finally got control of the Levada centre’s output, or Putin is genuinely wildly popular. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/84 "2015-10-11T14:15:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, my position is that calling the Crown Heights riots a pogrom is absurd and perverse. Oh, I see. Allow me to rephrase then. Will this be the fair summation of your position? Axelrod “probably” never explained to President Obama that Al Sharpton was an ideologue of a small scale riot (which was in no way, shape or form a pogrom), where Jews were targeted for beating and murder, their property was looted and anti-Semitic march was held with slogans, such as “Death to the Jews”? President Obama himself also “probably” doesn’t know that Al Sharpton was an ideologue of a small scale riot (which was in no way, shape or form a pogrom), where Jews were targeted for beating and murder, their property was looted and anti-Semitic march was held with slogans, such as “Death to the Jews”? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/85 "2015-10-11T14:40:38Z")
Your summaries are very clearly large strawmen. Maybe you wish to try some other form of discourse - the audience is not very convinced by the very obvious strawmen. I suppose it is like the lessons of Putin’s greatness not that this has anything to do with the Russia and the case of the fascism or not in the russia. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/86 "2015-10-11T14:41:24Z")
Could you take this bullshit about Sharpton to another thread? The OP asked a rather interesting question about the state of affairs in Russia, and I was quite interested in hearing informed discussion on the matter as I’m not at all well-versed in the subject. Instead I’m reading a bunch of irrelevant blather about a riot in New York. I apologize for junior modding, but this could be an interesting thread if a real mod came in and deleted every post by or responding to Alkash. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/87 "2015-10-11T14:44:38Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Your summaries are very clearly large strawmen We talked about this already, no? You previously [argued](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18761314#post18761314) that my “rendition of this event does not seem very well established.” I asked you what, exactly, is not well established? Were Jews not beaten and killed for the sole crime of being Jews? Was Jewish property not looted, because it belonged to Jews? Was not an anti-Semitic march held with slogans such as “Death to the Jews”? Did Al Sharpton not lead that march? Could you respond to that before we proceed further? ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/88 "2015-10-11T14:47:40Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Moreover, while I’m not a fan a of Al Sharpton, Yankel Rosenbaum, the only Jew killed in this so-called pogrom, was murdered prior to his infamous “diamond merchants” speech. > Please stop pissing on his grave as well as that of Gavin Cato. Apologies, clearly, calling an event where Yankel Rosenbaum (the only Jew killed! Only one! No biggie, move along, nothing to see here) a “pogrom” is pissing on his grave, while repeatedly inviting to the White House a man who led “Death to the Jews” march is, most definitely, NOT pissing on his grave. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/89 "2015-10-11T15:02:53Z")
**Alkash** points out one example of anti-Jewish violence in New York in 1991. [Here are 18 reported incidents in Russia in one year.](http://archive.adl.org/anti_semitism/russia_violence.html#.Vhp5I3pVhBc) So I guess using **Alkash** ’s criteria, Russia is 18 times closer to Nazism, or something. Whatever. It’s a stupid point to try to make in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/90 "2015-10-11T15:23:15Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > Could you respond to that before we proceed further? No, I do not see any point, the term I learned here is “tar baby.” you could consider professional assistance however. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/91 "2015-10-11T15:44:52Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > Apologies, clearly, calling an event where Yankel Rosenbaum (the only Jew killed! Only one! No biggie, move along, nothing to see here) a “pogrom” is pissing on his grave, while repeatedly inviting to the White House a man who led “Death to the Jews” march is, most definitely, NOT pissing on his grave. Al Sharpton didn’t lead a “Death to Jews” march. Please stop pissing on Yankel Rosenbaum’s grave as well as Gavin Cato’s. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/92 "2015-10-11T16:16:00Z")
I’m beginning to think this thread has no purpose. All ash, the stuff about Sharpton belongs in a different thread. Start one, if you feel a need. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/93 "2015-10-11T17:13:59Z")
Fascism is such a fluid notion that it probably isn’t helpful. However, Russia is definitely a nation ruled by a mafia boss who exists to line his and his cronies pockets at the expense of the people. He is authoritarian and a quasi-dictator who happily orders the murder of his political rivals. He exists and thrives through [Maskirovska](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maskirovka) in the fine old Russian tradition. Deflection and deception. One could even see \*\*Alkash’s \*\* deflection of the subject to American fascism as a classic example of this. I’m sure he/she is not purposefully doing that rather than deal with the original question regarding Russia. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/94 "2015-10-11T19:58:43Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Um, no. Russians are (with good reason) very hostile to _liberalism_. Some are. Others are very hostile to Communism. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/95 "2015-10-12T08:41:01Z")
Pussy Riot’s pretty keen on liberal things. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/96 "2015-10-12T14:45:25Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > So is there a case to be made that the Ukraine coup has been counterproductive and simply hardened Russian attitudes as they were beginning to soften ? How was it counterproductive? For the Ukrainians, who had very legitimate grievances with a heinously corrupt government, it was probably very productive. The fact that Russia insists on portraying the Ukrainian uprising as a western-sponsored plot is (A) fictitious and (B) totally unnecessary. It reflects a political system built on the premise that the people do not have the right to decide their own fates. Putin systematically suppresses dissenting opinions, jails political rivals, and very occasionally has them murdered. If not facism, it is at the very least a ruthless authoritarian state. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/97 "2015-10-12T15:00:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > **Alkash** points out one example of anti-Jewish violence in New York in 1991. [Here are 18 reported incidents in Russia in one year.](http://archive.adl.org/anti_semitism/russia_violence.html#.Vhp5I3pVhBc) And here’s [912](http://www.adl.org/press-center/press-releases/anti-semitism-usa/adl-audit-in-2014-anti-semitic-inicidents.html#.VhvKaXpVikq) reported incidents in the US in one year You had a point (besides trying to be on the receiving end of the quickest humiliation in Internet history)? 😕 > [@Ravenman](#): > > So I guess using **Alkash** ’s criteria, Russia is 18 times closer to Nazism Please point me to a quote of mine, where I made such a conclusion. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/98 "2015-10-12T15:10:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > **Alkash** points out one example of anti-Jewish violence in New York in 1991. [Here are 18 reported incidents in Russia in one year.](http://archive.adl.org/anti_semitism/russia_violence.html#.Vhp5I3pVhBc) I dutifully went through the list of 18 incidents provided. Not a single case of murder or an anti-Semitic march with “Death to the Jews” slogan. And needless to say, perpetrators and ideologues of these despicable crimes were not invited to Kremlin. Not even once. As opposed to [73](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2973067/Al-Sharpton-returns-White-House-73RD-visit-Obama-discuss-problems-facing-minorities.html) invites to The White House. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-to-fascism-is-russia-really/734141/99 "2015-10-12T15:27:54Z")
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