# How close will historians ever get to knowing what transpired between Trump and Putin behind closed doors at Helsinki? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [December 24, 2022, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035 "2022-12-24T13:46:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/41 "2022-12-24T19:05:41Z")
As I said: this is not my area of expertise; I feel I am being dragged into a territory of “gotchas”! I know you can end in jail in Germany, Spain, Belgium and France for revealing state secrets (perhaps not always, but you _can_, and if you can and it does not happen when revealing a confidential conversation at the very highest level conceivable, when would it happen?), at the very least you would be expelled from our professional association, see confidentiality here, 9th term, and observe in particular the term “unbreakable rule”: > **[Glossary - AIIC](https://aiic.org/site/world/conference/glossary)** > > Glossary I do take that vow very seriously and most of my colleagues do too. The ones who don’t are expelled. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/42 "2022-12-24T19:11:50Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I would expect that if they hear someone planning a crime that impacts the entire government, they should consult a lawyer and then potentially inform Congress that the current President of the USA is conspiring with a foreign adversary to overthrow the government. Just one more thing: You assume that this is what happened. Maybe it was not. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Professions do have the responsibility to come forward in certain circumstances, where crime is involved, or human life is at risk. There was no precedent, and when asked, the Republican majority in the Senate said she should not testify. I personally disagree with that decision, I believe it was partisan, but who am I to argue with the majority of the Senate? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/43 "2022-12-24T19:13:48Z")
Does confidentiality of interpreters always apply, or only when there was an expectation of confidentiality to begin with? If some person is giving a public speech, broadcast on television, and there’s an interpreter giving real-time interpretation, and an interviewer later asked them why they translated certain bits in certain ways, could an interpreter talk about that, for instance? I ask because, in meetings between world leaders, there is not usually an expectation of total privacy, even when classified matters are being discussed: Usually, there would be people present whose job is precisely to produce a transcript, for the (possibly-classified) archives of the countries in question. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/44 "2022-12-24T19:21:45Z")
If a speech is public there is nothing confidential to keep secret. I can talk about that. [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=569O0bXXoMY) is a video posted by a colleague where you see different interpreters working in Strasburg: I have the honour of interpreting Ursula von der Leyen, the European Commission’s President speaking to the Plennary. No secrets there: the EP streams that in all 23 official languages simultaneously. If other people are in the room (there always are) and the doors are closed the meeting is as confidential as when only two people are there. If someone else breaches confidentiality, too bad for them. As long as it was not me, everything is fine. Other people’s problems are by definition not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/45 "2022-12-24T19:37:12Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > No, it is not. Her vow of silence is a prerequisite to access conficential information as per her profession. You are getting this backwards. Biden can not release her from her bow of silence. > [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > At least breach of contract. This gets into the same issue that has been raised regarding executive privilege. Who did the interpreter have a contract with? If it was with Donald J. Trump in his personal capacity, and he was paying her salary (ha!), then there may be a contractual bar. But, if the contract was with the President of the United States, or the State Department, then those are the entities who can waive a contractual term of confidentiality, I would expect. So yes, if she were hired by the executive branch, the current head of the executive branch should have the power to waive the confidentiality clause. This is the same issue as the executive privilege that Trump has tried to raise with the Mar-a-Lago documents. He said that executive privilege applied, so they couldn’t be seized by the FBI under a search warrant. The Court of Appeals has dismissed that claim. Executive privilege is a privilege of the executive branch, headed by the current President. Executive privilege cannot bar the executive from access to executive documents. So, I would doubt, personally, that an interpreter hired by the government could rely on the contract to prevent disclosing information to the government agency which hired her. Just my thoughts; haven’t researched it or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/46 "2022-12-24T19:46:43Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > What a pity you are not a lawyer either, otherwise I would refer you to Mr. Julian Assange, Mr. Edward Snowden and Mr. Bradley / Ms. Chelsea Manning who would greatly appretiate your counsel. Snowden and Manning both disclosed information outside the US government. Yes, that disclosure was contrary to their contracts and triggered Espionage Act charges. However, disclosing confidential information to a third party, outside government, is nothing comparable to the issue whether an employee of the executive branch can refuse to provide information obtained under the contract to the executive branch itself, asserting that the contract forbids disclosure to the other party to the contract. Assange is facing charges of conspiring to induce a gov’t official (Manning) to breach their contractual and statutory obligation of confidentiality. Assange had no contractual obligation to the United States, so the issue you are raising does not arise at all in his case. (Not to say there aren’t other issues about it, but no contractual issue, so far as I’m aware.) ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/47 "2022-12-24T19:52:41Z")
OK, I am out of my depth now so I better shut up and let others do the reasoning. And it is Christmas Evening here, so allow me to bow out and wish you all the best! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/48 "2022-12-24T19:59:12Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > It is fundamental for the profession and for the future of diplomacy that what interpreters hear and say remains secret. Really? I would think it’s fundamental to democracy that the people representing our interests not be able to keep secrets from us when negotiating regarding public matters. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/49 "2022-12-24T20:01:01Z")
Let me introduce you to the concept of _[Realpolitik](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik)_. A democratic regime must be able to negotiate with a dictatorship without being so naive that it puts the democracy at a disadvantage. Because that would not be a good negotiating tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/50 "2022-12-24T20:04:46Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > concept of _[Realpolitik](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik)_. Your pragmatism is my excuse for concealing corruption, crime, and treason as well as malfeasance, misfeasance, and nonfeasance. Power without accountability is by definition autocracy. You can’t have accountability if you can keep secrets from the public. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/51 "2022-12-24T20:05:10Z")
Yes, this is what I meant by @Pardel-Lux “elevating [his/her] profession a step too far.” Doctor/patient, lawyer/client, priest/confesser confidences have limits, but an interpreter is absolutely bound to keep clients’ confidences? I could invent situations, involving heads of state colluding to commit genocide upon millions of innocents, and threatening the interpreters explicitly with being murdered if he breathes a word of it, but there are circumstances far less extreme in which I believe the interpreter could consider himself no longer bound to confidentiality. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/52 "2022-12-24T20:16:24Z")
Maybe so, but you don’t know whether those criteria were met in Helsinki’s meeting. You just assume so, because you dislike and mistrust Trump. So do I! But you don’t know whether what happened there, suspicious as it was, was a crime? Can you prove that the interpreter in that meeting should “consider ~~him~~ herself no longer bound to confidentiality”? You are asking a bit much. There was a telefone call between Trump and Selenski where Trump asked something illegal from Selenski in exchange from military support against Russia, namely that he accuse Hunter Biden of fraud. Many people were present, but only one spoke out. I believe shortly thereafter he was fired. In 2018 Trump had at least two years of being president ahead. And that intrepreter should have had the _cojones_ nobody else had shown in four years of Trump’s presidency? Maybe your approach is a tad self-rightgeous? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/53 "2022-12-24T20:18:57Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > Maybe so, but you don’t know whether those criteria were met in Helsinki’s meeting. You just assume so, because you dislike and mistrust Trump No, we’re just pointing out that the duty of an interpreter to keep their work completely shielded from the very government that hired them has limits. Every profession with an expectation of client privacy has limits. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/54 "2022-12-24T20:20:23Z")
I’m absolutely certain about two things: - Putin got what he wanted. Among the many things he may have wanted, a major one was public vindication on the accusations of US election interference. **[And he got that, in spades.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44852812)** - Trump was thrilled to be able to chat with Putin, and came away intoxicated by the delusion that Putin liked him. It was a case of a master strategist negotiating with a self-centered six-year-old. Putin must have had some hilarious vodka-fueled stories to tell after he got home. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/55 "2022-12-24T20:24:32Z")
But you don’t know whether those limits were overstepped in this case, you assume so, but you cannot know. And in doubt I will trust my colleague, albeit reluctantly, because I know how they think. I would have loved her to accuse Trump with damning evidence, but if she did not I will assume she knows why. You and me, we were not there. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Putin must have had some hilarious vodka-fueled stories to tell after he got home. One of the problems with Putin is that he does not drink. A vice he shares with Trump, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/56 "2022-12-24T20:36:07Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > One of the problems with Putin is that he does not drink. A vice he shares with Trump, I believe. Even the sternest teetotaler might make an exception on a very special occasion, like celebrating the fruits of having helped to elevate an easily-manipulated sycophantic stooge to the presidency of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/57 "2022-12-24T20:36:31Z")
I understand what @Pardel-Lux is saying. I was in a similar situation as a judge’s assistant. I was an extension of the judge I worked for and bound to maintain confidentiality in all matters for which the court was also bound. I would not break that confidentiality lightly and would always look to the authority of my judge before doing so. _If_ my judge was a criminal and there were matters of national security at stake, which in my situation there were not, I might break my silence. But as @Pardel-Lux points out, we don’t know this was the case. Trump had regular phone calls with Putin with _only_ a Russian interpreter performing those services, so what need did he have to take a risk with an American interpreter in Helsinki? Unless one makes the assumption that what occurred was criminal in nature, there’s no basis to excoriate the interpreter. I think the anger at the interpreter is either unjustified at this time or misplaced entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/58 "2022-12-24T20:44:34Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > And it is Christmas Evening here, so allow me to bow out and wish you all the best! And to you! Merry Christmas et Bonne Noël ! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/59 "2022-12-24T20:52:43Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I think the anger at the interpreter is either unjustified at this time or misplaced entirely. Oh, unless the interpreter heard something that was clearly criminal, I agree that the interpreter should not have breached silence on their own initiative But I think that’s a different thing than if the interpreter were to be subpoenaed by Congress to testify as to what was said, so that Congress could consider whether there was a breach of national security at the meeting, by the President himself. That was part of the discussion, apparently. I fully agree with professional standards of confidentiality, but as stated upthread, every profession has limits to that duty. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035/60 "2022-12-24T20:54:33Z")
Understood, which is why I said: > [@Aspenglow](#): > > _If_ my judge was a criminal and there were matters of national security at stake, which in my situation there were not, I might break my silence. But I would first look for professional protection from repercussions and retaliation, if at all possible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-close-will-historians-ever-get-to-knowing-what-transpired-between-trump-and-putin-behind-closed-doors-at-helsinki/977035.md?page=4)