# How closely should casting hew to characters' ethnicities and races? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 14, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486 "2015-06-14T04:52:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/41 "2015-06-15T11:27:28Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > I actually thought that was brilliant casting. He’s big, bald, scary, and a flashy dresser. Plus, I always assumed that Kingpin and Norman Osborn were originally intended to be black or mixed-race, and the colorist never got the memo. > > FWIW, Kingpin didn’t have the name “Wilson Fisk” until around 1979, when Frank Miller appropriated him into the _Daredevil_ title (He’d been exclusively a _Spider-Man_ character up until that point). I always associated the name “Fisk” with an historically black university in Nashville, further evidence he might be black. Supposedly, in some of the early conceptual work for Kingpin he was conceived as a black man, but Marvel was concerned about negative stereotypes and went for a white version. As also noted, his attire was also intended to avoid some stereotyping as well. Thus, casting Michael Clark Duncan as Kingpin was, in a sense, in line with a very, very early image of Kingpin (pre-publication, in fact). Here’s my take on the OP: is race/ethnicity central to the character or not? As Kingpin is a master criminal in a huge multi-racial city I don’t think his race/ethnicity is central to the character. What’s important is that he’s a big, imposing, massive guy, not just tall but wide in a way that tells you there is a lot of muscle underneath. His ethnicity doesn’t really matter. For Nick Fury, a black WWII era Nick Fury doesn’t seem as plausible to me due to the social bias against black men during that time, but a _modern_ black Fury works just fine for me. As noted, what’s most important about that character is that he’s a bad-ass. Samuel L. Jackson does just fine in that role, which is why Marvel used him in Ultimate Nick Fury and in the movies. The new _Battlestar Galactica_ mixed up the ethinicity/gender of a number of characters and it worked pretty well - the most important features of Starbuck was that Starbuck was the best damn pilot in the fleet and a rule-breaking maverick, not that Starbuck was a man or woman. Boomer went from a black man to an Asian woman. Colonel Tigh went from a black man to a white man. Adama went from clearly European to a Mexican. All that switching around seems to have worked out just fine. A black James West in _Wild, Wild West_ didn’t work for me because there’s no way in hell a black man would have been that effective in that role in that time period. Also, the movie sucked (not the actors - I like the actors, but I think the movie they were in sucked). A black Heimdall in _Thor_ did make me pause, but then, the Asgardians in Marvel are aliens capable of interstellar travel, not Scandinavians, and the royal family adopted a blue skinned infant of another species (and why is no one upset at the “white-washing” of Loki? Shouldn’t he be able to show his true colors?). In that context it’s not so whacky and Idris Elba convinced me that his Heimdall fit in that context. Maybe Heimdall’s back story would explain it: alien ancestry, Asgard does have racial minorities, the Bifrost gives off radiation that darkens the skin and he’s been exposed to a lot of it, whatever. Likewise, a non-white James Bond in a \*modern \*context could work well - the British Empire was world-wide and there are people of all ancestries with British citizenship these days even if England is still predominantly white. It would also confirm the “explanation” for Bond being around so damn long as “James Bond” being a code name, like 007, that’s been held by several different men. (Or maybe he’s a Time Lord, which would also account for his longevity and changing face.) As someone else pointed out, Othello doesn’t have to be black, he just needs to be of a different race than the rest of the cast to get the point across. Now, Sue and Johnny Storm in the _Fantastic Four_ don’t have to be white… but I do think they should be of the same race/ethnicity because they are brother and sister. The split race thing does bother me. So, again, it depends on whether a race or ethnicity is an important part of a character. And it does help if blood relatives somewhat look like they could be related. I was pleased that Marvel cast a half-Chinese/half-Causaian woman to play a character who is the daughter of a Caucasian father and Chinese mother in _Agents of Shield_. ---
**Author:** ![storyguide3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@storyguide3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyguide3)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/42 "2015-06-15T12:35:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I was pleased that Marvel cast a half-Chinese/half-Causaian woman to play a character who is the daughter of a Caucasian father and Chinese mother in _Agents of Shield_. I haven’t been following the show much since Season 1, which character is this? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/43 "2015-06-15T12:40:26Z")
> [@storyguide3](#): > > I haven’t been following the show much since Season 1, which character is this? Skye. You really should get back to the show. It got much better. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/44 "2015-06-15T12:47:03Z")
It depends on whether it helps or hurts the immersion in the show/movie, if it harms immersion it sucks period. If an actor’s appearance they could plausibly play a race/ethnicity they aren’t in reality I don’t think that is offensive. Being offended by that is like being offended Jabba isn’t really a giant alien slug, welcome to Hollywood. But bizarre shit like Breakfast At Tiffanys is both immersion breaking and offensive. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/45 "2015-06-15T13:00:28Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The new _Battlestar Galactica_ mixed up the ethinicity/gender of a number of characters and it worked pretty well - the most important features of Starbuck was that Starbuck was the best damn pilot in the fleet and a rule-breaking maverick, not that Starbuck was a man or woman. Boomer went from a black man to an Asian woman. Colonel Tigh went from a black man to a white man. Adama went from clearly European to a Mexican. All that switching around seems to have worked out just fine. Interestingly the show and the prequel Caprica actually made in canon explanations for this, the twelve different colonies had their own racial make up. Even in story racial slurs like dirt eater, I found this gave it a sense of reality. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/46 "2015-06-15T13:22:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If you’re making Fantastic Four, then Sue and Johnny absolutely need to look like they’re siblings, but they could be both white or both black or both Asian or whatever and it still works. Or one could be adopted. Or they are half-siblings raised together. It’s not that hard to imagine a scenario where one is black and the other white. And, let’s face it, you’re talking about a person who catches fire, and another that can turn invisible. If you’re willing to accept that, why does the race matter? It all boils down to “Is the person _good_ in the role?” ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/47 "2015-06-15T13:29:39Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Or one could be adopted. Or they are half-siblings raised together. It’s not that hard to imagine a scenario where one is black and the other white. > > And, let’s face it, you’re talking about a person who catches fire, and another that can turn invisible. If you’re willing to accept that, why does the race matter? > > It all boils down to “Is the person _good_ in the role?” Sure but there should then be a bit of dialogue or exposition that explains that, you can have fantastical settings or elements but everything else needs to make sense in context. Blood relations resembling each other is a fact of reality, to just arbitrarily break from this in fiction without an in universe explanation hurts the suspension of disbelief. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/48 "2015-06-15T14:19:34Z")
I agree - IF they make it explicit early on that Sue and Johnny Storm are either one or both adopted, or half-siblings, that would be a lot more acceptable than just _ignoring_ that they’re supposed to be related but look very different. So I guess we’ll have to wait for the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/49 "2015-06-15T14:19:38Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > And, let’s face it, you’re talking about a person who catches fire, and another that can turn invisible. If you’re willing to accept that, why does the race matter? I’ve never seen anyone catch fire or turn invisible, so I can’t claim to be an expert on the subject. I have, however, seen siblings, and know for a fact that they’re generally the same color. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/50 "2015-06-15T14:30:23Z")
it depends Any attributes of a character which are integral to the story should be kept. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/51 "2015-06-15T14:53:35Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > In the comics, Reed avoids talking directly to Johnny and regards him as mentally challenged; I doubt that will be intact in the film, but it’s a crucial part of the team dynamic. Since when? Not in any FF comics I ever read, and I’ve read them going back to the early 70s. And if you count reprints, I’ve read them back into the days of Lee and Kirby. Reed never regarded Johnny as “mentally challenged,” and never avoided talking to him. Of course, I stopped reading comics awhile ago, when it just got to be too expensive a hobby. Is this one of those “Ultimate” things where the characters are all assholes now? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/52 "2015-06-16T17:28:23Z")
One thing which is forgotten is that it takes a lot of talent, poise, and many things to actually come across well in film. While many think “oh, I’d do OK in front of a camera” the truth is only a small subset of people can really pull it off well. So in the case of transgender persons, you’re working with a subgroup which (at most) is 1 in 500 to 1 in 2,000 of the population. Starting with that small of a pool, it makes it even more difficult to find a transgender person who can play such in film or TV and do it well. The subject of “should transgender characters be played by transgender actors” is hotly debated within my community, and tends to break down upon hard party lines - those still living stealth or pre-transition generally seem to say “as long as it improves visibility, let cisgender people portray us.” Whereas among those of us who are done with our journey, the opinion seems to be “give some of us a chance once in a while to portray ourselves.” The debates on this within my community actually become quite surprisingly rancorous. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/53 "2015-06-16T20:28:00Z")
Actors portray characters who they are NOT. How much does does it matter how much NOT they are, if they are convincing in the part? In my opinion, it doesn’t matter. I remember a ferfluffle about how Tom Cruise couldn’t play Jack Reacher because he wasn’t taller and scarier looking. I thought he played the role very well, though there were a couple of places in the script that should have been changed because people reacted to him as if he WAS gigantic and intimidating. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/54 "2015-06-16T21:04:51Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Or one could be adopted. Or they are half-siblings raised together. It’s not that hard to imagine a scenario where one is black and the other white. Sure, but those are all changes from the source material that complicate the character’s backstory unnecessarily. Changing a character’s race is, of course, also a change to the source material, but not one that generally complicates things, and one that’s arguably necessary, if you feel that the race imbalance in classic superhero properties constitutes a problem for modern adaptations. > [@](#): > > And, let’s face it, you’re talking about a person who catches fire, and another that can turn invisible. If you’re willing to accept that, why does the race matter? Well, that’s the question here, isn’t it? Does race matter? To the makers of this new FF film, it sure appears to. “Race doesn’t matter, let’s make Heimdall black,” works. “Race doesn’t matter, let’s make Kingpin black,” works. “Race doesn’t matter, let’s make Johnny Storm black - _but not his sister_,” doesn’t work, because apparently race _does_ matter, otherwise they wouldn’t need to invent extra backstory to explain why Johnny and Sue are different colors. They’d just cast the characters who are siblings with actors who plausibly look like each other. > [@](#): > > It all boils down to “Is the person _good_ in the role?” I don’t think that’s all it boils down to, because this casting choice in particular leads to some questions about racial representation in popular media that are at least as troublesome as the virtual absence of colored characters in classic Marvel and DC properties. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/55 "2015-06-16T22:47:37Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > The subject of “should transgender characters be played by transgender actors” is hotly debated within my community, and tends to break down upon hard party lines - those still living stealth or pre-transition generally seem to say “as long as it improves visibility, let cisgender people portray us.” Whereas among those of us who are done with our journey, the opinion seems to be “give some of us a chance once in a while to portray ourselves.” > > The debates on this within my community actually become quite surprisingly rancorous. Which is a little odd when, IMO, the two stances, as phrased above, don’t seem incompatible. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/56 "2015-06-17T02:19:38Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Which is a little odd when, IMO, the two stances, as phrased above, don’t seem incompatible. I fear I was being accidentally too politically correct. What really is said is “for fuck’s sake, how about letting us portray ourselves so we can make some fucking progress? We’ve got enough ‘visibility’ as it is.” ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/57 "2015-06-17T03:45:43Z")
I have nothing to contribute. I just popped in to say I love that you used the word “hew” in your title. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/58 "2015-06-17T04:42:23Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I fear I was being accidentally too politically correct. What really is said is “for fuck’s sake, how about letting us portray ourselves so we can make some fucking progress? We’ve got enough ‘visibility’ as it is.” I hear resonances of American Indian actors in your post, **Una**. Think we could use more visibility, though, as well. _Dances With Wolves_, for example, was 25 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/59 "2015-06-17T07:12:59Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > Since when? Not in any FF comics I ever read, and I’ve read them going back to the early 70s. And if you count reprints, I’ve read them back into the days of Lee and Kirby. Reed never regarded Johnny as “mentally challenged,” and never avoided talking to him. > > Of course, I stopped reading comics awhile ago, when it just got to be too expensive a hobby. Is this one of those “Ultimate” things where the characters are all assholes now? This is the 616 version. Whenever the team splits up, Reed teams with either Ben or Sue. I can only remember one time he ever paired off with Johnny, in _Giant Size FF_#2. Once, early in the Byrne run, Reed said outright to Sue that “Johnny isn’t the most… _intellectually inclined_ of us.” More recently, about two years ago, they were all in a spaceship bickering and Sue talked down to Johnny, and Johnny fired back “You talk to me _exactly_ the way he talks to you!” The only scene in the past few years that Reed and Johnny spoke directly was during the “Original Sins” tie-in when Reed called him a moron for breaking the machine that could have reverted Ben to human. Reed doesn’t really like talking to anybody, but makes exceptions for Ben, Sue and Val. Maybe Franklin, but he’s happier when Franklin is off playing with his little pals from the Future Foundation. This is all less true in the Lee/Kirby days, when Johnny hadn’t dropped out of college yet and distinguished himself for being the only member who could have a college degree, but didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486/60 "2015-06-17T07:25:57Z")
> [@N9IWP](#): > > What about Michael Clarke Duncan as Wilson Fisk? I was OK with that as the notable feature is that WF is LARGE. My problem with the performance is that Duncan smiled too much. Vincent D’Onofrio, in contrast, was a tad too reserved. It’s a fine line. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-closely-should-casting-hew-to-characters-ethnicities-and-races/722486.md?page=4)