# How come a Creationist doesn't post somethin .... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715 "2005-04-10T23:31:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/41 "2005-04-11T15:28:20Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > I’m not entirely sure that one can make such strong claims about causation, or indeed about refuting such claims. Lots of guesswork involved. Who’s to know whether in the 2040s folk won’t be trashing, disabusing, refuting, whathaveyou, the findings and conclusions of the 2000s? Do you have an argument somewhere (preferably backed up with evidence) that you’re holding on to until the time is right? Or is it just your old “You don’t know everything!” bit again? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/42 "2005-04-11T16:30:11Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > No fair. It’s got to be turtles all the way down. You’re not allowed to postulate a turtle at the bottom of the stack that is resting on nothing. 😃 Just one turtle, the Great A-Tuin; he’s swimming in the Cosmic Sea. (Some people have no respect for the Sacred Writings! ) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/43 "2005-04-11T16:45:10Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Just one turtle, the Great A-Tuin; he’s swimming in the Cosmic Sea. (Some people have no respect for the Sacred Writings! ) And the Cosmis Sea is contained in … ? Maybe the inverted shell of a dead turtle on the back of another elephant that is supported by turtles all the way down? ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/44 "2005-04-11T17:36:16Z")
Hey, look, a debate evolved! (Not the Pratchett portion.) Moving ya to **Great Deb_apes_**. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/45 "2005-04-11T17:36:43Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > And the Cosmis Sea is contained in … ? > > Maybe the inverted shell of a dead turtle on the back of another elephant that is supported by turtles all the way down? Now that’s just preposterous. 😛 Is anyone else reminded of the play _Inherit the Wind_ now? ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/46 "2005-04-11T17:42:28Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Just one turtle, the Great A-Tuin; he’s swimming in the Cosmic Sea. (Some people have no respect for the Sacred Writings! ) Well, duh! Everyone knows that! ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/47 "2005-04-11T17:47:28Z")
> [@SkipMagic](#): > > Hey, look, a debate evolved! (Not the Pratchett portion.) > > Moving ya to **Great Deb_apes_**. You don’t really want your firsty mod pitting to be about a bad pun, do you? Funny thing is, I had just realised moments before your post that we weren’t in GD already. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/48 "2005-04-11T18:49:09Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Okay, let’s broaden the field. Which mammals are currently (thought to be) evolving into new species? Must be spoiled for choice there. Put it another way, which are those mammals that have a relatively high probability of belonging to that group (i.e. those (thought to be) evolving into new species)? Think about what drives speciation: mainly environmental change and isolation of populations. Humans are a very large, fairly stable (ie, not shrinking) population. We’re spread all over the globe, with few, if any, islolated populations. And keep in mind by “isolation” we mean isolation for many, many, generations. We also control our own environment to a large degree. While there may not be evolutionary pressures on our superficial physical characteristics, it’s certainly possible that our immunilogical systems could an evolutionary jolt from a pandemic. So, if you want to find out which mammals are ripe for sepciation, look for those which have recently split into non-breeding populations in environments that are changing. > [@](#): > > Re humans, since it’s a “fact” that we have many suboptimal characteristics (that’s a quote from talkorigins, by the way), then surely evolution ain’t gonna let a li’l technology get in the way of its - albeit purposeless - relentless march? Evolution’s not wimping out just when we have so many tools and instruments with which to observe and measure it? Objectively and all. Evolution doesn’t have a “relentless march”. Natural selection is the process by which evolution occurs, and natural selection is going on all the time. Sometimes very quickly, and sometimes extremely slowly. All you really need to know is that each new generation is different mix-up of alleles (or genetic material) and presents a new hand to be played. When the next catastrphy comes, some individuals or populations will have a better chance, due to genetics, at survival and the game starts all over again. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/49 "2005-04-11T19:16:54Z")
When did **SkipMagic** get _made_ [into a Mod]? When I was in Yorkshire I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/50 "2005-04-11T19:20:32Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > When did **SkipMagic** get _made_ [into a Mod]? > When I was in Yorkshire I suppose. Can that be cited as an example of evolution? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/51 "2005-04-11T19:29:26Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > When did **SkipMagic** get _made_ [into a Mod]? Cripes, there goes the neighborhood. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/52 "2005-04-11T19:34:56Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > Oh, and **Darwin’s Finch** is still around, and will probably be along presently to correct/clarify/criticize/demolish what I’ve said above. 😃 I believe things are actually picking up for him a bit. (Good on ya, mate.) Yeah, but they’re leaving him in such a woozy state that he’s hanging out in the low-rent districts like IMHO and MPSIMS. “Oooh! I have a date tonight! What should I get her?” sorts of things. Pathetic. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![PeeQueue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@PeeQueue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PeeQueue)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/53 "2005-04-11T19:44:27Z")
Hey re: all the bit about autism being neurologically testable and all… What about the kids that the school nurse or local psychologist tells the parents, “Well it looks like he may have a slight case of autism”? I believe that there is a real disease called autism. However, I also think (based on the fact that I’ve seen a couple instances in my extended family) that there are people “diagnosing” kids with autism before they perform those tests. And kids are being put in special classes / left behind, etc based on these “diagnoses”. Sorry for the continued derail, but I figured it was pretty far off course already. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/54 "2005-04-11T19:54:27Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > Not to get serious or anything, but that actually was the view–sort of–of many ancient peoples. The Greeks believed that they were the sad decayed remnnants of a once glorious golden age. You can find evidence of this in both Homer and Hesiod, IIRC. And in the bible too. 🙂 > [@Malacandra](#): > > No fair. It’s got to be turtles all the way down. You’re not allowed to postulate a turtle at the bottom of the stack that is resting on nothing. 😃 In a closed, curved universe the stack of turtles would eventually meet. You should see the bottom of the turtle if you looked up. Since we don’t, I can only conclude that the universe is open and flat. And turtle free. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/55 "2005-04-11T20:02:01Z")
I’m trying to remember which, but either the walrus, the sea-lion, or the seal, and I think it’s the sea-lion, _appears_ to be evolving into a fully aquatic species, much the way the whale did. Right now, the only reason they really come to shore is to breed, and some aren’t even doing that. I think I read about it in Gould, but I can’t even guess at the book. ---
**Author:** ![Latimera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/latimera/32/497_2.png) [@Latimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latimera)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/56 "2005-04-11T21:05:48Z")
Well look at this…after many years of lurking, I’m finally posting something. Hopefully I won’t mess it up… An example of a mammal that is evolving into another species (IMHO) is the population of American black bears found on the Queen Charlotte Islands (north coast of British Columbia). They have been isolated from the mainland populations for some thousands of years and already tend to be larger and have larger skulls. Given enough time they could well evolve into a distinct species. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/57 "2005-04-11T21:20:21Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > You know, I was wondering where all the creationists went. We used to have one pop up every month or so, but I haven’t seen any recently. Maybe they all got scared off. You got that right. Not scared off, but run off from being attacked by 50 posters at a time, all intimating how ignorant and dumb creationists are. Buth hey, you got me, I am a creationist, but not a Bible creationist. Do you want to discuss this kind of Creation [http://www.aleroy.com/FAQz25.htm](http://www.aleroy.com/FAQz25.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/58 "2005-04-11T21:36:30Z")
> [@Latimera](#): > > An example of a mammal that is evolving into another species (IMHO) is the population of American black bears found on the Queen Charlotte Islands (north coast of British Columbia). They have been isolated from the mainland populations for some thousands of years and already tend to be larger and have larger skulls. Given enough time they could well evolve into a distinct species. Actually, the American Black Bear (_Ursus americanus_) varies widely in size, coloring, and foraging behavior depending on habitat. Bears in the nearby San Gabriels, for instance, rarely grow larger than 300 lbs, while up in Big Bear they can get as large as 600. A better example is the divide between the American and Asian Blacks, which are thought to be genetically compatible but demonstrate very different attitudes. (The Asian black bear is much more aggressive than, presumably due to the lack of predation by grizzlies.) An example of subspeciation (which will eventually diverge into distinct species) are the mainland brown/grizzly bears. From [this](http://www.bear.org/Grizzly/Grizzly_Brown_Bear_Facts.html) site: > [@](#): > > Taxonomy: While there has been much confusion about the taxonomy of brown bears (Ursus arctos), taxonomists agree there are at least two subspecies in North America – the grizzly bear (U. a. horribilis) and the Kodiak bear (U. a. middendorffi). There is confusion about whether to consider others, like U. a. gyas and U. a. macfarlani, as separate subspecies. The Kodiak bear has lived separately on Kodiak, Afognak, and Shuyak Islands in southwestern Alaska for thousands of years with no interbreeding with other populations. However, there is no such geographic demarcation between the coastal U. a. gyas and the inland U. a. horribilis. There is a continuum of difference between the larger coastal brown bears and the interior individuals that are generally called grizzly bears. Coastal brown bears have a greater amount of animal protein in their diet, achieve larger size, and have slight differences in coloration. At any point from the coast to the interior there is interbreeding between the populations (Jonkel 1987, p 456-473). Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Latimera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/latimera/32/497_2.png) [@Latimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latimera)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/59 "2005-04-11T22:54:33Z")
Stranger: I’m sorry; I don’t understand your American black bear/Asian black bear example. They are already different species. As for mainland vs. Kodiak Island grizzly bears, this is analogous to the one I described for black bears. The black bear (Ursus americanus) is also divided into subspecies. The taxonomy of this species is also open to debate, but the Provincial Government of British Columbia has recognized the Queen Charlotte Islands population to be a separate subspecies (U. americanus carlottae). As I mentioned previously, they are isolated from the mainland populations, and are becoming morphologically distinct. Given enough time they may evolve into a separate species, just as the Kodiak bear could continue to diverge from other brown bears. ---
**Author:** ![Latimera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/latimera/32/497_2.png) [@Latimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latimera)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/60 "2005-04-11T22:57:30Z")
I meant to include this link in my last post regarding the Queen Charlotte Islands black bear subspecies: [http://srmwww.gov.bc.ca/risc/pubs/tebiodiv/bears/bearml20-02.htm](http://srmwww.gov.bc.ca/risc/pubs/tebiodiv/bears/bearml20-02.htm). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715.md?page=4)