# How come a Creationist doesn't post somethin .... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715 "2005-04-10T23:31:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/61 "2005-04-12T02:02:52Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Just one turtle, the Great A-Tuin; he’s swimming in the Cosmic Sea. (Some people have no respect for the Sacred Writings! ) Gee, are _all_ sacred writings open to gentle sarcasm? ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/62 "2005-04-12T02:18:02Z")
> [@SkipMagic](#): > > Hey, look, a debate evolved! (Not the Pratchett portion.) > > Moving ya to **Great Deb_apes_**. Don’t mean I’m going to break the habit of a lifetime, you know! Not gonna let myself be bullied by no one. And this started in Mindless and Pointless. I had a sneaking suspicion when I first came across this thread that that wily old fox Simmons had created some sort of Trojan Horse. Now my hunch has been confirmed. No, as a Popperian (God, you guys are gonna be loving this), I think I prefer to say it’s been corroborated. > [@Excalibre](#): > > Do you have an argument somewhere (preferably backed up with evidence) that you’re holding on to until the time is right? Or is it just your old “You don’t know everything!” bit again? Come on, be honest - you love it. Okay, just for you, a bit of theory. We need to recognise (following Hayek, MacIntyre et al) the rationality of tradition and even the rationality of passions and emotions (especially mine, of course). I also hold that some of the arguments used in the evolutionary debate might be logically compelling but nonetheless lack plausible premises. > [@John Mace](#): > > So, if you want to find out which mammals are ripe for sepciation, look for those which have recently split into non-breeding populations in environments that are changing. Others have chipped in with their candidates. What are yours? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/63 "2005-04-12T04:08:52Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > And this started in Mindless and Pointless. I had a sneaking suspicion when I first came across this thread that that wily old fox Simmons had created some sort of Trojan Horse. Now my hunch has been confirmed. Not at all anything below the surface. I really wanted to get some info on **Darwin’s Finch** and in fact some was shaken loose. I notice that you are no longer all alone. **lekatt** is on your side. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/64 "2005-04-12T04:28:07Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Gee, are _all_ sacred writings open to gentle sarcasm? Of course, not. The sacred writings of the Scientologists are open to _savage_ sarcasm, devastating literary criticism, and open dismissal with a considerable dose of guffawing accompanied by much snickering and a few titters. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/65 "2005-04-12T04:37:04Z")
Careful, **Tomn**! Crimes against Ron are punishable throughout several planes of existance. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/66 "2005-04-12T04:39:49Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > I notice that you are no longer all alone. **lekatt** is on your side. And how do you think I feel about this latest development?! Most of the creationists turn out to be loonies… Not everyone can combine intellectual rigour with devastating critique. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/67 "2005-04-12T04:42:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > … and a few titters. A nervous one of those just ran through the audience. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/68 "2005-04-12T04:48:48Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > A nervous one of those just ran through the audience. Grabbing women’s breasts. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/69 "2005-04-12T04:49:55Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Others have chipped in with their candidates. What are yours? Evolution doesn’t have a direction or momentum. It would be silly to try to predict the future. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/70 "2005-04-12T05:11:35Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Evolution doesn’t have a direction or momentum. It would be silly to try to predict the future. So far as I can tell, other posters have been “predicting” the present. That, or they’re being silly. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/71 "2005-04-12T05:38:31Z")
Can you clarify what you mean by “predicting the present”? Certainly some popluations are more likely to speciate than others, but asking which ones are on the verge of speciation tends to imply that there is some “momentum” in place that is carrying populations toward speciation. But populations split and reunite all the time, and speciation at any given time is never certain. Many people misunderstand evolution, thinking that species are on some predetermined journey “up the evolutionsary ladder”, and I think speculation about specific instances of speciations does more harm than good since it reinforces that erroneous belief. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/72 "2005-04-12T05:46:02Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Can you clarify what you mean by “predicting the present”? Not really, but I was referring to the type of process noted by: > [@E-sabbath](#): > > I’m trying to remember which, but either the walrus, the sea-lion, or the seal, and I think it’s the sea-lion, _appears_ to be evolving into a fully aquatic species, much the way the whale did. Right now, the only reason they really come to shore is to breed, and some aren’t even doing that. > > I think I read about it in Gould, but I can’t even guess at the book. Perhaps “speculating on the present” or “guessing” (my personal favourite word for these kind of things) would do better. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/73 "2005-04-12T05:52:49Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Not scared off, but run off from being attacked by 50 posters at a time, all intimating how ignorant and dumb creationists are. Now then you’re going to upset some of these folks. They love to think that they terrify people who don’t agree with them with their knowledge and reading. (Even perhaps with their thinking, but, on the other hand, perhaps not.) My own reaction is much along the lines of former British Socialist MP Denis Healey, who responded to an attack by the rather moist Conservative MP Geoffey Howe by saying that he felt as if he had been savaged by a dead sheep. Still, it helps to sharpen the wits of those blessed with self-reflection and a little of that most important of all knowledges, self-knowledge! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/74 "2005-04-12T06:02:11Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Not really, but I was referring to the type of process noted by: > Perhaps “speculating on the present” or “guessing” (my personal favourite word for these kind of things) would do better. You’re a linguist are you not? What language is English going to turn into? Has it stopped evolving? It’s exactly the same now as it was when I was a kid. When’s it going to change? What other languages are going to change and what will they become? When will they be finished? Predicting biological evolution is no different. Also, evolutionary theory has never failed a prediction and has never relied on “guesses.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/75 "2005-04-12T06:10:34Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Not really, but I was referring to the type of process noted by: > Perhaps “speculating on the present” or “guessing” (my personal favourite word for these kind of things) would do better. Well, when I see an article by **E-sabbath** published in \*Nature \* concerning the inevitable evolution of the sea lion into a whale-like species, then I’ll be concerned. Until then, I’d say it’s an erroneous statement made on a message board. Hardly unique. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/76 "2005-04-12T06:12:57Z")
Apples and oranges, **Dio** , I would say. Language change should not be compared with animal and plant change. For one thing, there are precious few language changes that happen without human agency (strangely enough, lower middle class (i.e. aspiring) women typically drive such change in the UK). Evolution is very different. And thanks for reminding me. I must finish the revisions to my thesis by mid-June, so log out I must for the rest of the afternoon, much as I am loathe to. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/77 "2005-04-12T10:46:41Z")
John, speculation can not be in error. It may be wrong, though. One can speculate as to the apparent direction of a trend in any creature’s life. [http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/gould\_leviathan.html](http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/gould_leviathan.html) This is not the precise article I’m thinking of, but it does track the history of the whale, and note that the sea lion is currently apparently in a similar state to an early stage of the transition of the whale. This gives no special validity to my thoughts, but the whale pictures are interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/78 "2005-04-12T11:22:39Z")
Since nobody seemed to notice my post about ring species on the last page, I’ll mention them again - ring species allow us to observe speciation is progress (not that I’m arguing they represent _the only_ method by which it can occur) - right now, under our very noses, herring gulls are evolving into black-backed gulls, or vice versa, or rather more correctly, they have both descended from a common ancestor. We are able to know this because the _intermediates_, (or rather, their _descendants_) are all still alive and well - nobody disputes that herring and black-backed gulls are different species, and yet there exists a continuum of intermediate forms, spread across a geographic range that encircles the globe, changing a little bit every step of the way until it comes back to the same place -where the changes add up to a significant difference between the two - plenty enough to make a different species. No speculation, presumption or interpretation required, no separation from the evidence by time or chance - it’s all there to see, right now, plain as day. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/79 "2005-04-12T12:21:19Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > This is not the precise article I’m thinking of, but it does track the history of the whale, and note that the sea lion is currently apparently in a similar state to an early stage of the transition of the whale. Whales are such successful buggers (except where they run into Japs and Vikings) that one cannot be surprised that they’d be a kind of unconscious, ateleological model for sealions. This thread is finally getting somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715/80 "2005-04-12T12:35:27Z")
But we’ve already got whales **and** sealions: they are **both** “evolutionarily successful” in that they _exist right now_ in large numbers. Over generations, the present form of the sealion might be replaced by some other forms: if one is more “whale-like” that still doesn’t imply a _direction_ from “sealion to whale”. The prediction is not “sealion to whale” but “sealion to _variations_ on a sealion, _whatever_ they are” - let’s see if that comes true, shall we? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-a-creationist-doesnt-post-somethin/298715.md?page=5)