# How come conservatives are against abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063 "2014-05-09T16:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/181 "2014-05-11T17:45:50Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I note that after four pages of sometime acrimonious debate, we are no closer to answering the OP question about why conservatives feel the way they do about this issue. Indeed this is another of those issues where conservatives and liberals have lined up in ways that aren’t intrinsically predictable and are somewhat anomalous. It’s conservatives who object to government overreach who you’d think would champion personal liberties, and it’s liberals who tend to oppose the death penalty as part of a general pro-life stance. So how did things happen to line up where conservatives and liberals have such drastically different interpretations of when embryonic human life begins? I note that a similar disconnect tends to exist with issues like euthanasia and pulling the plug on brain-dead patients. Conservatives were all up in arms over the Terry Schiavo case, and in that one, at least, objective science was able to prove them wrong when the autopsy was done. My suspicion is that evangelicals and the religious base have a lot do with these conservative positions in the US. Only to the extent that some votes can be wrung from the religious Republican voters. When Government exercises authority over women and medical practitioners, it’s not to make points with God, it’s to exert control. That is the job of Government. Conservative politicians ironically (but not really) favor Government intrusion into the private affairs of women, support the DEA drug raids of private homes (with dubious warrants and storm-trooper tactics), and random drug checkpoints along the highway, all for the purpose of control. They want greater control over our lives. They want total control of our lives. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/182 "2014-05-11T18:31:10Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Conservative politicians ironically (but not really) favor Government intrusion into the private affairs of women Again, and I know I repeat myself, it is not a “private affair” of yours if you’re killing someone. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/183 "2014-05-11T18:54:06Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Only to the extent that some votes can be wrung from the religious Republican voters. When Government exercises authority over women and medical practitioners, it’s not to make points with God, it’s to exert control. That is the job of Government. Conservative politicians ironically (but not really) favor Government intrusion into the private affairs of women, support the DEA drug raids of private homes (with dubious warrants and storm-trooper tactics), and random drug checkpoints along the highway, all for the purpose of control. They want greater control over our lives. **They want total control of our lives.** Emphasis added. That’s a crock of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/184 "2014-05-11T19:14:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. That’s a crock of shit. Well of course it is. SirGalahad seems to forget who is directing the DEA in its drug raids of private homes “with dubious warrants and storm-trooper tactics” (hint: it is not Republicans). And there are random drug and alcohol checkpoints along the highways in 39 states. Some of which are of the bluest color. Like Maryland, or DC or New York. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/185 "2014-05-11T19:50:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, and I know I repeat myself, it is not a “private affair” of yours if you’re killing someone. It is if that person is inside your body and you want them out. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/186 "2014-05-11T20:12:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It is if that person is inside your body and you want them out. And yet we disallow abortion after a certain point. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/187 "2014-05-11T20:22:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, and I know I repeat myself, it is not a “private affair” of yours if you’re killing someone. Yes, you are, and repeating yourself doesn’t address the issues I raised in my previous post, namely that we’ve been arguing this for four pages now and no one has actually been able to _ **logically justify** _ what is clearly only one point of view and one interpretation of abortion which many strongly disagree with – and that includes many thoughtful and introspective individuals and the Supreme Courts of many nations, including the USA. I’m not ridiculing you or saying that you’re wrong, but I am unequivocally saying that there are pretty serious thinkers out there who hold a diametrically opposite point of view that have to be acknowledged. We all know what “murder” is and no sane person thinks it’s OK, but the abortion issue is far from being any kind of slam-dunk. Again, it’s pointless to argue and say that your POV is wrong, though conservatives were certainly wrong about Terry Schiavo and one suspects that these are dogmatic rather than rational arguments, but at any rate it certainly seems fair to ask the following key question. How can conservatives and their policymakers possibly justify and condone imposing your particular view **by force of law** on an entire population, many of whom strongly disagree, and doing so **at the real risk to life and well-being of indisputable actual adult human beings**? Is it not good enough, just as in the gay marriage issue, to follow your own conscience in your own lives and leave the rest of us alone? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/188 "2014-05-11T20:28:53Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > How can conservatives and their policymakers possibly justify and condone imposing your particular view **by force of law** on an entire population, many of whom strongly disagree, and doing so **at the real risk to life and well-being of indisputable actual adult human beings**? Is it not good enough, just as in the gay marriage issue, to follow your own conscience in your own lives and leave the rest of us alone? Is it good enough to “follow your own conscience” and leave the others alone when they’re killing children? I don’t think so. I’m surprised you’re even asking the question. See, you seem to be absolutely, organically, utterly, incapable of understanding that others may not think like you do. And they may think that abortions kill children. And when you think that abortions kill children, then no, it is not good enough to just leave it alone. It is an absolute moral imperative to try to prevent the killings, by force of law, if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/189 "2014-05-11T21:15:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Is it good enough to “follow your own conscience” and leave the others alone when they’re killing children? I don’t think so. I’m surprised you’re even asking the question. > > See, you seem to be absolutely, organically, utterly, incapable of understanding that others may not think like you do. And they may think that abortions kill children. And when you think that abortions kill children, then no, it is not good enough to just leave it alone. It is an absolute moral imperative to try to prevent the killings, by force of law, if necessary. All I’m seeing you do here is repeating that same hyperbolic catchphrase about “murder” and “killing children” without ever being able to rationally justify that hyperbolic point of view. Yes, I understand that others don’t think as I do; it’s quite self-evident here, and that’s fine – I’m not interested in passing judgments. My problem is with those who insist that their view of a profoundly complex and personal issue is the only right one, and insist on imposing it on everyone. They don’t seem to understand that a large segment of the population feels quite differently, and that there are significant and specific risks associated with imposing such draconian laws. This really does remind me a lot of the SSM debate, where gay couples basically want to be left alone, and conservatives are so frothing at the mouth to ban SSM that in some states they’ve not only made it illegal, but then doubled down by passing a completely redundant state constitutional amendment against it, just because it feels even better than just a mere law. Yet they’ve never been able to explain how this could ever affect the “sanctity” of their own marriages or their own lives. Great going for the champions of “personal liberties” and brave fighters of “government intrusion”. :rolleyes: Believe it or not, I do understand that some people are genuinely sincere in their pro-life beliefs, but they in turn need to understand the authenticity of opposing points of view and the validity of the pro-choice personal and medical arguments. Laws are the lowest common denominator – everyone has to abide by them. The absence of a law in this domain leaves a diversity of options open, according to individual conscience and medical ethics, and removes government bureaucracy from intensely personal decisions that are already extremely difficult. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/190 "2014-05-11T21:20:55Z")
When you think something is murder, you don’t just leave it up to everyone to decide. If you can’t understand that, there is no point in continuing the debate. It’s not at all like SSM, since no one thinks anyone is getting murdered when two gay people get married. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/191 "2014-05-11T21:22:28Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Believe it or not, I do understand that some people are genuinely sincere in their pro-life beliefs If you think that someone is sincere in thinking that abortions kill children, then I don’t see how you can possibly think that “leave it alone” is then a rational, or ethical, option. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/192 "2014-05-11T22:32:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When you think something is murder, you don’t just leave it up to everyone to decide. If you can’t understand that, there is no point in continuing the debate. It’s not at all like SSM, since no one thinks anyone is getting murdered when two gay people get married. > [@Terr](#): > > If you think that someone is sincere in thinking that abortions kill children, then I don’t see how you can possibly think that “leave it alone” is then a rational, or ethical, option. Terrific! I’m trying to graciously acknowledge that at least some pro-lifers are genuinely sincere in believing abortion to be wrong, and I get beat up for it. :rolleyes: How about I invent an equally ridiculous and hyperbolic term for the anti-abortionists as a counter to the “baby murder” meme – maybe we can call pro-lifers “mother killers”. Now if I really sincerely believe that, it’s not something I could be expected to compromise on, and if you can’t understand that, there’s no point in continuing the debate! Now tell me how that sort of extremism advances the argument in any sort of constructive way. But I’m not taking extreme positions, and you’re both misinterpreting me. I acknowledge that some pro-lifers are probably sincere, misguided though they may be. That doesn’t mean I agree for one second with the “baby murder” hyperbole. If someone truly believes that, then indeed there’s no point in trying to have a discussion or have any hope of a middle ground agreement, and there’s not much anyone can do about it. What Roe v. Wade and other nations’ Supreme Court decisions have recognized **is that there is a great deal of validity to the pro-choice argument**. This is fundamental. In some rulings (as in Roe) this is balanced with the pro-life side, in others (like the Canadian Supreme Court decision) the pro-choice side stands entirely unchallenged, with all abortion laws declared null and void. Most advanced nations in the world have emerged somewhere in the middle of this milieu. If you look at the map at the link that was posted earlier of abortion laws around the world, the most restrictive abortion laws exist mostly in third-world backwaters, and the most liberal ones in most progressive first-world nations. The US varies by state but is generally in the middle, but only because of Roe. It’s currently caught between two strident opposing political factions. If the pro-lifers continue to regard abortion as “murder” under any circumstances, there will never be an amicable agreement, but ultimately, only one of these factions will turn out to be on the right side of history. One has only to look at other nations around the world to see what side that is. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/193 "2014-05-11T22:37:49Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Terrific! I’m trying to graciously acknowledge that at least some pro-lifers are genuinely sincere in believing abortion to be wrong, and I get beat up for it. :rolleyes: > > How about I invent an equally ridiculous and hyperbolic term for the anti-abortionists as a counter to the “baby murder” meme – maybe we can call pro-lifers “mother killers”. Now if I really sincerely believe that, it’s not something I could be expected to compromise on, and if you can’t understand that, there’s no point in continuing the debate! First, since you “invent” this, and don’t believe it, what’s your point? And second, this thread does not exist to find a “compromise”. It exists to explain to the OP “How come conservatives are against abortion?”. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/194 "2014-05-11T23:12:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, you’re OK with abortion on demand at any time during pregnancy? My position was stated in this thread previously – a woman should be allowed to remove the fetus from her body at any point with the least amount of harm done possible. If the fetus is viable, this usually means delivery. If not, any method of removal is equally harmful to the fetus, so the one least harmful to her should be used. Of course, viability is not determined with 100% certainty, and there are occasions in which delivery may be significantly more harmful to her than the alternative, so there is going to be a gray area. This is best determined by the woman and her doctor(s). Or, what wolfpup said. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/195 "2014-05-11T23:13:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And yet we disallow abortion after a certain point. Why is that? We shouldn’t, in my opinion. And in many places, we don’t. I trust that women and their doctors will make the best decision for their own lives and bodies, and I trust that pretty much zero women will have a late-term abortion without a very good reason. While the possibility exists that a woman might have a late-term abortion for a bad reason, I believe that this risk is vastly outweighed by the restrictions on women’s rights to control their bodies if limits are placed. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/196 "2014-05-11T23:28:43Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > A pregnant woman shouldn’t be compelled to do anything against her will. If she wants to avail herself of a futuristic artificial womb, bully for her. She shouldn’t be forced to do any such thing. I’m not seeing why you’re introducing this technology into the debate unless it is currently available and in use. If it is, please provide a cite. I didn’t know about " …an artificial womb, wherein the transfer procedure is as safe as an abortion to the woman and the artificial womb is as good as a human one for fetal development." If there’s no such thing yet, how is this thought experiment instructive? Hey, if _Star Trek_ transporters were available, why couldn’t we transport the fetus to a Conservative woman’s womb? I like \*Star Trek \*more than _The Matrix_. I am merely raising the hypothetical to support the assertion that the goal of abortion is not the killing of the fetus, but the ending of the pregnancy. If such technology were to exist, I believe that she should be compelled to use it _in lieu of an abortion_, i.e. should she desire to end her pregnancy. The answer to the possibility of teleporting the fetus to another’s womb is analogous. My support of the right to abortion is not based on whether a fetus is a person or not, which is something there is no definitive answer for. It is based on one’s right to control the use of one’s own body. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/197 "2014-05-12T01:04:00Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > The Bible is pretty clear that human life begins with the first breath. Prior to that point, all you have is the potential, with the fetus being treated as property, not independent life. While as I’ve said before, Scripture does not explicitly teach that human life begins at conception it considers at some still in the womb to be a person (consider the reference to John the Baptist “leaping” in the womb). With regards to the OP, this is why I believe a pro-life liberal position is the most consistent pro-life position. I’m opposed to abortion both legally and morally but I believe that at the same time that the government should ensure good conditions for the infant and his family post-birth via expanded social services, universal daycare, paid maternity leave along with discouraging abortion in the first place through expanded access to birth control. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/198 "2014-05-12T01:29:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, all you have to do is NOT kill the baby, and it has a very good chance of being born. Yes, if one considers the woman a mere vessel and completely discounts her work and risks when she **carries** a pregnancy to term and **labors** to deliver the baby, then of course abortion is abhorent. This is why the absolute pro-life position is misogynistic. It does not treat women as humans whose well-being deserves consideration. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/199 "2014-05-12T01:41:26Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Not arguing with you, just commenting on that POV. I basically agree with it. But the inconsistencies still abound. One thing I hear a lot from conservatives is that the unborn fetus must be protected because it’s helpless and innocent. Is there something _ **not** _ innocent and helpless about a one-year old or a two-year old that doesn’t have adequate nutrition or health care, or a six-year old that doesn’t have warm clothes to wear or a good school to go to? Especially one that wasn’t wanted in the first place, or that the parent(s) couldn’t afford? Even if the parents are bums, how – in a civilized society – is that the child’s problem? That’s the disturbing part. Some might feel that it’s totally not society’s duty to allocate any resources to children’s well-being and education no matter how badly they’re needed, but they have no problem allocating resources later on to incarcerating them in penitentiaries. You’re unaware that conservatives [donate more to charity](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/20/religion-politics-affect-americans-philanthropy/?page=all) to address these problems, I take it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/200 "2014-05-12T02:16:52Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > You’re unaware that conservatives [donate more to charity](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/20/religion-politics-affect-americans-philanthropy/?page=all) to address these problems, I take it? I tend to be skeptical of articles in that paper, but you do raise a good point-- some people think that the only way you can show you care about something is to support some government program or other. And that if you don’t support government programs, it’s proof that you don’t care. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=11)