# How come conservatives are against abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063 "2014-05-09T16:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/261 "2014-05-12T14:12:10Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > It is an unfortunate and very dangerous side-effect of something we do for very different reasons. Understood? Since it is a known “side effect”, and you go ahead anyway, you have to take responsibility for the human life it produces when it happens, instead of snuffing it out. In fact, even if you don’t know of that “side effect”. It is a human life. You don’t kill a human being because of inconvenience. Or your “needs” other than danger to life. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/262 "2014-05-12T14:14:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Since it is a known “side effect”, and you go ahead anyway, you have to take responsibility for the human life it produces when it happens, instead of snuffing it out. > [@Terr](#): > > Why do people keep trying for “gotchas”? [Abortion in the case of rape] Not unless there is a danger to the mother’s life. …Remind me again why you’re wasting my time with “The woman agreed to get pregnant” if _it obviously doesn’t matter one whit for your argumentation_? Look, you’re wrong, and I’m not going to explain it to you again. That it’s a known side-effect does nothing to support your idea that it’s something we agreed to. Nothing. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/263 "2014-05-12T14:15:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong analogy. How about if you already donated but want the organ back, which would kill the recipient? That would be upon birth, in which case of course it would be illegal. When the organ is still inside one’s body, one has control over it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/264 "2014-05-12T14:17:04Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > …Remind me again why you’re wasting my time with “The woman agreed to get pregnant” if _it obviously doesn’t matter one whit for your argumentation_? For the same reason that you (plural) are wasting time with “in the case of rape” when it obviously doesn’t matter one whit for your argumentation. Or why you’re wasting time with “unplanned” argument when it obviously doesn’t matter one whit for your argumentation. Are you willing to forbid abortions for “planned” pregnancies? ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/265 "2014-05-12T14:21:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why do people keep trying for “gotchas”? Not unless there is a danger to the mother’s life. > > You know how there are cases where some women don’t even know they’re pregnant right up to the moment they give birth? So - what if a woman was raped and it was such a case and the kid was born. Should we kill the kid because of how he was conceived? Wait, so someone who got pregnant by rape also “granted” the access to her body? How? Because “if it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down”? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/266 "2014-05-12T14:27:58Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > Wait, so someone who got pregnant by rape also “granted” the access to her body? No she didn’t. And it is still human life and it still should not be snuffed out. Here’s a return “gotcha” for you. If someone has a “planned” pregnancy and then decides to have an abortion, should it be allowed? After all, she definitely “granted” the access. I suspect it doesn’t matter for you whether it was planned or unplanned. Then why are you asking? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/267 "2014-05-12T14:29:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > For the same reason that you (plural) are wasting time with “in the case of rape” when it obviously doesn’t matter one whit for your argumentation. Or why you’re wasting time with “unplanned” argument when it obviously doesn’t matter one whit for your argumentation. Are you willing to forbid abortions for “planned” pregnancies? Yes. Now prove that any given pregnancy was planned. > [@Terr](#): > > No she didn’t. And it is still human life and it still should not be snuffed out. Prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/268 "2014-05-12T14:30:58Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yes. Now prove that any given pregnancy was planned. Now prove it was unplanned. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/269 "2014-05-12T14:53:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No she didn’t. And it is still human life and it still should not be snuffed out. Thanks for clearing that up. Imagine a world in which someone can attack you and in the process force to be a firefighter (less deadly than carrying a pregnancy to term by the way) for 10 months, without pay. You stand a good chance of suffering the loss of some bodily functions permanently. How would you like to live there? > [@](#): > > Here’s a return “gotcha” for you. If someone has a “planned” pregnancy and then decides to have an abortion, should it be allowed? After all, she definitely “granted” the access. If someone consents to sex, can she still yell “stop!”? Or is she obligated to comply until he is done? > [@](#): > > I suspect it doesn’t matter for you whether it was planned or unplanned. Then why are you asking? We’re asking to figure out how much the woman matters to you. The answer is not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/270 "2014-05-12T14:53:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You seem to be blaming conservatives and anti-abortionists for resistance to granting legal status to pre-born individuals (your phrase). Do you really believe that liberals and pro-abortionists would support such legislation, and that only conservatives are preventing this from happening? Not at all, and I never suggested I did. I’m just pointing out that abortion-rights opponents seem quite comfortable with accepting the traditional societal perspective that an embryo/fetus **isn’t** an individual person equal in rights or value to an actual born human— **unless** somebody chooses to abort one. This, to me, makes abortion bans seem less like laws against murder and more like laws against poaching. The lord of the manor doesn’t think of his pheasants or his deer or his trout as having personhood or rights to life, and it doesn’t bother him that lots of them will be killed before maturity by natural causes, but unauthorized people aren’t allowed to kill them deliberately. It’s not about protecting life so much as about asserting authority. Mind you, I certainly don’t think that most anti-abortion conservatives consciously subscribe to any such analogy. I accept that most of them genuinely believe that they think an embryo/fetus is a person with full human rights. But I think their lack of consistency in the societal assumptions they’re apparently willing to accept about embryos/fetuses **outside** the area of abortion rights suggests that they may be maintaining that belief by means of some considerable unconscious cognitive dissonance. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/271 "2014-05-12T15:14:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > Namely, we often see conservatives failing to support a consistent concept of fetal life as equivalent in importance and value to other forms of human life. For example: > > > > - _Accepting exceptions to abortion bans in cases of rape or incest._ Surely, if you consider an embryo or fetus a child with rights fully equal to those of a born child, you wouldn’t believe that its right to life is in any way contingent on the circumstances of its conception. > > Quite correct, and something I noted earlier. > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > - _Delaying legal recognition of individual personhood until the moment of birth._ If an embryo or fetus is an individual child with rights fully equal to those of a born child, why are you okay with not having the government recognize and document the existence of that individual in its pre-borm state? Why don’t censuses and tax codes count embryos/fetuses as separate individuals? Why aren’t all forms of termination of pregnancy a matter of legal record, not just deliberately induced abortion? > > That’s reaching, since it’s of so little consequence compared to just not having them killed. One step at a time, the might say. But I’m not talking about mobilizing political action, I’m talking about fundamental attitudes. Anti-abortion conservatives don’t seem to give a hoot about so-called fetal personhood in **any** circumstances unless somebody’s trying to kill one. This is the cognitive dissonance I spoke of in my previous post: they’re perfectly fine in most circumstances with society treating embryos/fetuses as not fully human persons, and only if they think somebody might kill one do they switch into their “_but it’s a BAAAAAAABYYYY_” mode. [QUOTE=John Mace] > [@Kimstu](#): > > - _Indifference to the appallingly high rates of natural death of embryos/fetuses._ It’s estimated that anywhere from half to three-quarters of all fertilized eggs never progress to birth. [_Edit: See **wolfpup** ’s numbers in a previous post._] If you really consider every embryo/fetus from the moment of conception to be morally equivalent to a born child, this fact ought to rank with you as one of the greatest tragedies of our current condition. You can bet that if natural causes were killing half to three-quarters of, say, all toddlers every year, not only their parents but everybody else would be shaking the skies with lamentations and demands for vastly improved research and treatment to combat this terrible scourge. Maybe conservatives don’t approve of government sponsored research the way that liberals do. [/QUOTE] :dubious: Pretty weaksauce, **John** , as **bldysabba** noted. Anti-abortion conservatives who really believe that every fertilized egg is a BAAAAAABYYY could be setting up **private** research foundations all over the place to combat the number-one destroyer of pre-born life: namely, natural causes. Just as conservatives with little faith in “government sponsored research” can and do sponsor the work of private organizations to combat, say, infant mortality. The fact that few or no anti-abortion conservatives appear to give any non-negligible fraction of a rat’s ass about the massive mortality rates of fertilized eggs in general—but are expending so much outrage on the statistically much less significant impact of induced abortion—suggests that on some level they don’t really believe (or haven’t really thought through the implications of the belief) that every human ovum at the moment of fertilization immediately acquires all the rights and moral standing of a fully human person and is just as important as any other person. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/272 "2014-05-12T15:26:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Since it is a known “side effect”, and you go ahead anyway, you have to take responsibility for the human life it produces when it happens, instead of snuffing it out.\ Oh good grief. I have locks on my doors and an alarm system. But if a family of homeless people somehow overcomes or avoids my protections and gains entry then sets up housekeeping in my den, by your standards I’ve “granted” them access. After all, burglars are a “known side effect” of home ownership. By owning a home I’ve invited this consequence, so I should just hand them a key and full kitchen privileges. And hope that they don’t destroy my house or kick me out of it. They are human, they have life, and they have needs to maintain that life. The fact that it’s against all my reasonable precautions doesn’t matter to you. You’re certainly entitled to hold your own opinions. But not only do I heartily disagree with you, I cannot see any logical justification for yours. Clearly, YM does V. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/273 "2014-05-12T15:30:45Z")
Eh. I never really found the argument that “if you really cared about X, you would do Y” to be compelling. The constitution of US was re-interpreted to find a right to an abortion. Anti-abortion folks know exactly how to change that-- overturn Roe v Wade. How one would go about saving more “unborn babies” is about on par with how one would go about saving more automobile deaths. I’m not seeing any mad scramble by conservatives to do much of anything about the latter, so I’m not seeing why they have to prove their anti-abortion bona fides by doing something about the former. However, I certainly agree that most people on both sides have not fully thought through their positions. We see anti-abortion folks wiling to make exceptions for rape and/or incest, and we see pro-abortion folks saying _ **no one can tell a woman what she can do with her body!!!** _ while at the same time putting limits on exactly when abortions are no longer allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/274 "2014-05-12T15:31:06Z")
Odd how the idea “every fertilized egg is a baby” doesn’t have the “pro-life” crowd picketting frozen egg fertility clinics. Most eggs don’t survive the freezing and implantation processes. Why aren’t they be prosecuted for “murder”? Cause harassing women who choose to have an abortion is much more fun. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/275 "2014-05-12T15:34:28Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Oh good grief. I have locks on my doors and an alarm system. But if a family of homeless people somehow overcomes or avoids my protections and gains entry then sets up housekeeping in my den, by your standards I’ve “granted” them access. After all, burglars are a “known side effect” of home ownership. By owning a home I’ve invited this consequence, so I should just hand them a key and full kitchen privileges. And hope that they don’t destroy my house or kick me out of it. They are human, they have life, and they have needs to maintain that life. The fact that it’s against all my reasonable precautions doesn’t matter to you. Oh good grief, what is it with pro-abortionists and faulty analogies? How about - you live in complete wilderness. 100 miles to nearest civilized place. The winter just started. It’s -40 degrees outside. Someone sneaks into your house, past your locks, to find warmth. You know that if you kick them out, they will freeze to death. 100% certainty. Or you can allow them to stay for a few months until the thaw and then have them leave. For the sake of the analogy, you cannot communicate to the outside, so you can’t ask someone to come pick them up. In that case, if you kick them out, I believe it’s homicide. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/276 "2014-05-12T15:36:22Z")
And after staying for two months, the person says “I like this cabin. You have to let me stay here forever.” Or “I like this cabin. I’m going to kill you and take ownership.” What then? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/277 "2014-05-12T15:39:19Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Odd how the idea “every fertilized egg is a baby” doesn’t have the “pro-life” crowd picketting frozen egg fertility clinics. Most eggs don’t survive the freezing and implantation processes. Why aren’t they be prosecuted for “murder”? Where did you get the idea that I, for example, think that “every fertilized egg is a baby”? When the egg has implanted, and **without intervention** will eventually be born - yes, it’s a baby. Someone upthread tried to give a faulty analogy that a bunch of lumber is not a house. That’s correct, a bunch of lumber is not a house. But if you have some kind of self-assembling automaton sitting there with a bunch of lumber, pipes, glass, and other materials, and if you leave it alone it will build a house within months, then yes - that’s a house. And if you destroy it it is equivalent to destroying a house. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/278 "2014-05-12T15:40:33Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > And after staying for two months, the person says “I like this cabin. You have to let me stay here forever.” Or “I like this cabin. I’m going to kill you and take ownership.” What then? Again, for the sake of argument, let’s say you have 100% guarantee that that will not happen. 'Cuz you know, no one has ever documented a year-long pregnancy (though it may seem much longer). So - In that case, if you kick them out, I believe it’s homicide. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/279 "2014-05-12T15:42:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Where did you get the idea that I, for example, think that “every fertilized egg is a baby”? > > When the egg has implanted, and **without intervention** will eventually be born - yes, it’s a baby. How did you come to the conclusion that “implantation” is the time after which there is human life that needs to be protected? The reason I ask is that I haven’t heard anyone choose that point before. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/280 "2014-05-12T15:44:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How did you come to the conclusion that “implantation” is the time after which there is human life that needs to be protected? The reason I ask is that I haven’t heard anyone choose that point before. The point of time at which, without intervention or someone preventing it from happening on purpose, there will be a baby born (barring some natural event) is the point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=15)