# How come conservatives are against abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063 "2014-05-09T16:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/381 "2014-05-14T12:25:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why are you putting words in my mouth? Did I say I would be unhappy about a million avoided abortions? I said I would not be happy with abortions (other than under threat to mother’s life). Period. All pregnancies threaten a mother’s life to some degree, of course – being pregnant significantly raises one’s risk of death. At what degree of risk of death do you believe abortion is acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/382 "2014-05-14T12:28:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > All pregnancies threaten a mother’s life to some degree, of course – being pregnant significantly raises one’s risk of death. At what degree of risk of death do you believe abortion is acceptable? That’s casuistry. At degree of risk significantly higher than the normal pregnancy risk. Am I to presume from your question that you agree? Or are you just asking for the hell of it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/383 "2014-05-14T12:32:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s casuistry. At degree of risk significantly higher than the normal pregnancy risk. Am I to presume from your question that you agree? Or are you just asking for the hell of it? I’m just curious about your view – I’ve made it pretty clear that we disagree. I don’t believe the risk to the mother’s life should matter at all with regards to her right to end the pregnancy, but I’m very curious to know specifically at what level you believe the risk of death is high enough. Or do you leave it purely up to her doctor? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/384 "2014-05-14T12:35:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m just curious about your view – I’ve made it pretty clear that we disagree. I don’t believe the risk to the mother’s life should matter at all with regards to her right to end the pregnancy, but I’m very curious to know specifically at what level you believe the risk of death is high enough. Or do you leave it purely up to her doctor? Specifically when it is significantly higher than the normal pregnancy risk. As determined by her doctor (and, if there is some kind of legal objection, by second/third opinion doctors). If we’re into this kind of casuistry, you answer the question: is it ok to kill the kid one minute before he is to be born? 10 minutes? 2 days? 10 days? etc… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/385 "2014-05-14T12:45:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Specifically when it is significantly higher than the normal pregnancy risk. As determined by her doctor (and, if there is some kind of legal objection, by second/third opinion doctors). Thank you. > [@](#): > > If we’re into this kind of casuistry, you answer the question: is it ok to kill the kid one minute before he is to be born? 10 minutes? 2 days? 10 days? etc… Easy – the woman’s right to expel anything or anyone from her body is absolute. So she has the right to end her pregnancy, like **BrightSunshine** mentioned, using the minimum required harm. If she wants to end her pregnancy a day before it’s due, or a week, or 3 weeks, she has the right to end it – in most cases, the least harmful way to do this will be to induce labor. She has the right to induce labor at any time. Hopefully, she can get a doctor to assist her – but doctors have the right to refuse for various reasons. No one has the right to kill a baby laying on a table. She does not have the right to kill her fetus if inducing labor is possible and does not introduce more risk of death to the mother. So no, it is not ‘ok to kill the kid’. It’s okay to end the pregnancy. Not okay to kill the kid when there are other ways to end the pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/386 "2014-05-14T12:54:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No one has the right to kill a baby laying on a table. She does not have the right to kill her fetus if inducing labor is possible and does not introduce more risk of death to the mother. Again, quibbling. It is always less risk to kill the kid, then abort, then go through labor. So, distinction without a difference. Your criteria allows to kill the kid up to one minute before it being born. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/387 "2014-05-14T12:58:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, quibbling. It is always less risk to kill the kid, then abort, then go through labor. So, distinction without a difference. Your criteria allows to kill the kid up to one minute before it being born. No it doesn’t. Please don’t ascribe positions to me that I don’t hold. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/388 "2014-05-14T12:58:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No one has the right to kill a baby laying on a table. She does not have the right to kill her fetus if inducing labor is possible and does not introduce more risk of death to the mother. > > So no, it is not ‘ok to kill the kid’. It’s okay to end the pregnancy. Not okay to kill the kid when there are other ways to end the pregnancy. How did you come up with this rule? And is OK for her to have someone induce labor 2 at 7 months, with significant risk of pre-mature birth problems to the baby? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/389 "2014-05-14T13:02:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How did you come up with this rule? It’s based on my understanding of ethics and morality. > [@](#): > > And is OK for her to have someone induce labor 2 at 7 months, with significant risk of pre-mature birth problems to the baby? I’m not sure what “labor 2 at 7 months” is, but if that’s a typo and you mean “labor at 7 months”, then yes, I believe a mother has the right to induce labor early if she desires. She has the right to end the pregnancy at any time, if she desires. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/390 "2014-05-14T13:05:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not sure what “labor 2 at 7 months” is, but if that’s a typo and you mean “labor at 7 months”, then yes, I believe a mother has the right to induce labor early if she desires. She has the right to end the pregnancy at any time, if she desires. That is, she has the right to kill the kid at any time, if she desires. According to “ethics and morality”, no less. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/391 "2014-05-14T13:06:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That is, she has the right to kill the kid at any time, if she desires. According to “ethics and morality”, no less. No, she has the right to expel anything or anyone from her body, at any time, if she desires. That does not necessarily include killing the kid (though that will be the likely result in most cases of ending a pregnancy early). And based on my understanding of ethics and morality, and the importance that is placed on the right to control one’s body, there’s no possible other conclusion I could come to. I’ll note that my understanding of ethics and morality has changed over time, and it’s possible as I learn more it may continue to evolve. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/392 "2014-05-14T13:08:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Specifically when it is significantly higher than the normal pregnancy risk. As determined by her doctor (and, if there is some kind of legal objection, by second/third opinion doctors). > > If we’re into this kind of casuistry, you answer the question: is it ok to kill the kid one minute before he is to be born? 10 minutes? 2 days? 10 days? etc… What is significantly higher? The current maternal mortality rate is approximately 1 in 4000. Is 1 in 400 significantly high enough for you? I asked you this question above. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/393 "2014-05-14T13:09:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, she has the right to expel anything or anyone from her body, at any time, if she desires. That does not necessarily include killing the kid (though that will be the likely result in most cases of ending a pregnancy early). Right. Your ethics and morality require killing the kid. See, I reject that kind of “ethics and morality”. Right to live trumps right to not be inconvenienced in my “ethics and morality”. Not in yours, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/394 "2014-05-14T13:12:09Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > What is significantly higher? The current maternal mortality rate is approximately 1 in 4000. Is 1 in 400 significantly high enough for you? I asked you this question above. Significantly higher is significantly higher. I am talking about the principle. If you agree on it, then (if I am the judge in the case) we can talk about percentages. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/395 "2014-05-14T13:14:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why are you putting words in my mouth? Did I say I would be unhappy about a million avoided abortions? I said I would not be happy with abortions (other than under threat to mother’s life). Period. The “because” part you made up. I think you are demonstrating the lack of nuance described above. Speaking as someone who is anti-gun, if there is a development that reduces accidental and intentional gun deaths by 97%+, I would jump up for joy, regardless of whether the letter of the law is against my principles. If you actually do care about babies, then you’d notice that at that point abortions are far and away dwarfed by natural fetal loss and infant mortality and tackle the most urgent causes of those. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/396 "2014-05-14T13:17:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Right. Your ethics and morality require killing the kid. No they don’t. They require granting the woman (and everyone) the right to choose what goes and what remains inside their bodies. And the right to expel anything or anyone that they want out. Sometimes this might require killing something, but not always. > [@](#): > > See, I reject that kind of “ethics and morality”. Right to live trumps right to not be inconvenienced in my “ethics and morality”. Not in yours, apparently. We have a different definition of “inconvenience”. Mine does not categorize pregnancy from rape as an ‘inconvenience’… yours does, based on what you posted earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/397 "2014-05-14T13:38:23Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > You’re unaware that conservatives [donate more to charity](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/20/religion-politics-affect-americans-philanthropy/?page=all) to address these problems, I take it? From the article: “But researchers caution that churchgoers are no more generous than secular Americans when donations to religious groups are excluded. … Indeed, when tithing is taken out of the equation, the list of most charitable states changes dramatically.” Considering we already finance churches through tax-exemption, I don’t think that churches can realistically be called “charity”, nor should they be used as an example of the selflessness of conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/398 "2014-05-14T13:50:14Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > From the article: "But researchers caution that churchgoers are no more generous than secular Americans when donations to religious groups are excluded. Other research has found differently - > [@](#): > > Religious people are more generous than secular people with nonreligious causes as well as with religious ones. While 68 percent of the total population gives (and 51 percent volunteers) to nonreligious causes each year, religious people are 10 points more likely to give to these causes than secularists (71 percent to 61 percent) and 21 points more likely to volunteer (60 percent to 39 percent). For example, religious people are 7 points more likely than secularists to volunteer for neighborhood and civic groups, 20 points more likely to volunteer to help the poor or elderly, and 26 points more likely to volunteer for school or youth programs. It seems fair to say that religion engenders charity in general — including nonreligious charity. [Cite.](http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6577) > [@](#): > > Considering we already finance churches through tax-exemption, I don’t think that churches can realistically be called “charity”, nor should they be used as an example of the selflessness of conservatives. This doesn’t make any sense. We subsidize all non-profits thru tax exemption, therefore donations to secular non-profits cannot be used as examples of the selflessness of liberals. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/399 "2014-05-14T14:02:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No they don’t. They require granting the woman (and everyone) the right to choose what goes and what remains inside their bodies. And if (or, basically, when) it kills the kid - who cares, since your “ethics and morality” are fine with that. > [@](#): > > We have a different definition of “inconvenience”. Mine does not categorize pregnancy from rape as an ‘inconvenience’… yours does, based on what you posted earlier. Because, of course, all pregnancies are the result of rape. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/400 "2014-05-14T14:16:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Right. Your ethics and morality require killing the kid. See, I reject that kind of “ethics and morality”. Right to live trumps right to not be inconvenienced in my “ethics and morality”. Not in yours, apparently. I’ve been too busy to comment on this thread, but I’d like to just say “amen” to what **Terr** is saying here, and that I agree with him more or less 100% (on abortion). To the OP: abortion isn’t particularly a _right_ or _left_ wing issue: about 30% of Democrats are pro-life and 30% of Republicans are pro-choice, as noted above. If you’re asking “why are pro-life people pro-life”, the answer is simple: because abortion is killing an innocent human person, and we generally think that, except in self-defence, that’s not the kind of thing society should allow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=21)