# How come conservatives are against abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063 "2014-05-09T16:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/561 "2014-05-20T22:14:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cool. You have someone in a coma. He has no sentience, consciousness, awareness or intelligence. Just a body laying there. Doctors tell you that they are pretty sure that if you leave him alone and don’t do anything, he will come out of the coma in several months. Do you think you should be allowed to kill him because he has no sentience, consciousness, awareness or intelligence, and only a “potential” to have them in the future? If the guy coming out of the coma requires _someone else_ to be chained to the bed for 10 months, kicked in the gut, and cut open, etc, I’d say I’d let that person decide is she’s willing to do it. It’s utterly appalling how you repeatedly describe carrying a pregnancy as “doing nothing”. Did you call your mother on mother’s day and say, “thanks mom for doing nothing to bring me on Earth. I’m sure you’re not regretting that minor inconvenience since I grew up to be such a caring and loving human being”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/562 "2014-05-21T01:30:36Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Do you think it’s OK to kill someone in his sleep? Same answer. Then your “no sentience, consciousness, awareness or intelligence” criteria goes right out of the window, doesn’t it? > [@](#): > > The more pertinent analogy is whether it’s OK to pull the plug on someone in a comatose vegetative state with no brain function. A body that once had the attributes I listed, but no longer does, and has no hope of regaining them. Ah but the fetus not just has a “hope”, but a very high chance of gaining them. So no, it is not a “more pertinent analogy”. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/563 "2014-05-21T02:10:44Z")
Saying that people who support abortion rights support killing, is just as inflammatory as saying people who are against abortion rights support rape. People against abortion want to insert something into a vagina (from the womb) against a woman’s will, so it’s probably as true as killing a mass of cells being the same thing as killing a baby. But neither has any place in GD, imho. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/564 "2014-05-21T02:15:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Then your “no sentience, consciousness, awareness or intelligence” criteria goes right out of the window, doesn’t it? > Ah but the fetus not just has a “hope”, but a very high chance of gaining them. So no, it is not a “more pertinent analogy”. An acorn isn’t a tree. If there are laws against cutting down trees, the law doesn’t apply to an acorn. If I burn down a forest, I haven’t burnt down a house, no matter how serious you were about building a log cabin out of those trees. You’re welcome to your opinion, but since your position is that the rights of a sentient human have to take a back seat to a potential one, you certainly shouldn’t get to make rules that effect other people. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/565 "2014-05-21T03:04:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, and, unless you go and deliberately kill it, it will be a baby. You have to kill it in order to prevent it from being a baby. Do you seriously not comprehend the difference between “will be” and “is?” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/566 "2014-05-21T03:10:43Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Do you seriously not comprehend the difference between “will be” and “is?” See post 559. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/567 "2014-05-21T03:13:39Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > . . . You’re welcome to your opinion, but since your position is that the rights of a sentient human have to take a back seat to a potential one, you certainly shouldn’t get to make rules that effect other people. I certainly agree with everything else you said, but here, with great sadness, I’m going to quibble, just a bit. Yes, our correspondent does have the right to make the rules. He gets to vote for whatever candidate for Congress he wants, and for whatever President he wants, knowing the kind of Supreme Court Justices that President will appoint. He gets to vote for whatever Senators he wants, to confirm those Supreme Court nominees. If the pro-life side can accomplish this, and overturn Roe v. Wade, then…they win. Our rights are never so strongly protected that they can’t be taken away – entirely legally. He does get to make the rules…and so do we. The important thing is for us to continue to fight at least as hard as he does, and to prevent civil rights gains from being taken away again. We recently lost the enforcement provisions of the Civil Rights Act; within days, states acted to restrict voting rights. Abortion rights, right now, seem to hang on a one-person majority in the Supreme Court. Our democracy is a rickety, shaky, tenuous, tremulous, unstable platform…and there are people out there, kicking at the uprights as vigorously as they can. Hell of a way to run a railroad… But, as the fellow said, “If you know a better hole, go to it.” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/568 "2014-05-21T03:14:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cool. You have someone in a coma. He has no sentience, consciousness, awareness or intelligence. Just a body laying there. Doctors tell you that they are pretty sure that if you leave him alone and don’t do anything, he will come out of the coma in several months. Do you think you should be allowed to kill him because he has no sentience, consciousness, awareness or intelligence, and only a “potential” to have them in the future? In the event you kill him, you are erasing the person he is. That’s a killing worth punishment. If you kill a fetus, you are stopping the person _it will become_, not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/569 "2014-05-21T03:15:10Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I certainly agree with everything else you said, but here, with great sadness, I’m going to quibble, just a bit. > > Yes, our correspondent does have the right to make the rules. He gets to vote for whatever candidate for Congress he wants, and for whatever President he wants, knowing the kind of Supreme Court Justices that President will appoint. He gets to vote for whatever Senators he wants, to confirm those Supreme Court nominees. > > If the pro-life side can accomplish this, and overturn Roe v. Wade, then…they win. Our rights are never so strongly protected that they can’t be taken away – entirely legally. > > He does get to make the rules…and so do we. The important thing is for us to continue to fight at least as hard as he does, and to prevent civil rights gains from being taken away again. > > We recently lost the enforcement provisions of the Civil Rights Act; within days, states acted to restrict voting rights. Abortion rights, right now, seem to hang on a one-person majority in the Supreme Court. > > Our democracy is a rickety, shaky, tenuous, tremulous, unstable platform…and there are people out there, kicking at the uprights as vigorously as they can. > > Hell of a way to run a railroad… But, as the fellow said, “If you know a better hole, go to it.” I agree that he can. I just think he shouldn’t. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/570 "2014-05-21T03:17:45Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Do you seriously not comprehend the difference between “will be” and “is?” See post 559. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/571 "2014-05-21T03:21:41Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > In the event you kill him, you are erasing the person he is. That’s a killing worth punishment. So you _can_ be a person without sentience, consciousness, awareness or intelligence? Basically “a clump of cells”? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/572 "2014-05-21T03:25:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So you _can_ be a person without sentience, consciousness, awareness or intelligence? Basically “a clump of cells”? The sentience, consciousness and awareness is produced by a working brain. Assuming his brain works again, he’ll be back among us. I don’t support killing sleeping people either. I think a better way to phrase it, is being a person involves the capacity for a conscious mind. If you’re drugged, or KO’ed you’re still a person, you’ve just been put into sleep mode. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/573 "2014-05-21T03:32:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The sentience, consciousness and awareness is produced by a working brain. Assuming his brain works again, he’ll be back among us. And assuming the baby’s brain works in the future, the baby will be among us. But right now (according to you) it doesn’t work, so the baby is not “among us”. And neither is the guy in the coma. So why is killing him wrong again? > [@](#): > > I think a better way to phrase it, is being a person involves the capacity for a conscious mind. Current capacity? If so, the guy in the coma demonstrably doesn’t have it. Neither does the fetus. So why is killing one wrong but killing the other isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/574 "2014-05-21T05:11:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Science and technology do not show this, unless your definition of “virtually identical” means “significantly different”. My definition of “virtually identical” means that apart from its size, a baby at five month’s gestation is little different from a baby at full term. I’ve posted links to [this baby](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2626149/Holding-dear-life-Mother-tells-miracle-daughters-milestones-10-weeks-born-legal-abortion-threshold.html) at least twice but since you seem to have missed it I thought I’d post it again. Note that she’s a fully formed baby, with bones, joints, skin that wrinkles when her joints are articulated, etc. Note that she’s sleeping and breathing through her lungs thanks to a tiny oxygen mask, both of which indicate the presence of a developed and functioning brain. She is a child by any rational, non-political definition, and is most decidedly not an embryo, zygote or “shapeless mass of tissue”. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/575 "2014-05-21T05:19:03Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The sentience, consciousness and awareness is produced by a working brain. Assuming his brain works again, he’ll be back among us. If he or she isn’t killed, the baby will be among us soon as well. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/576 "2014-05-21T05:20:45Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I agree that he can. I just think he shouldn’t. 😃 Grin! Total agreement, and I owe you a drink! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/577 "2014-05-21T05:25:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > See post 559. Not very responsive, and not actually an answer to the question. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/578 "2014-05-21T05:29:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > . . . Current capacity? If so, the guy in the coma demonstrably doesn’t have it. Neither does the fetus. So why is killing one wrong but killing the other isn’t? Two reasons. First, the straight-up comparison is, itself, fallacious, and everyone here knows that. The guy who is unconscious is still fully-formed and operationally whole. The fetus is not viable, not viable, not functional. It doesn’t have the parts necessary for consciousness. The man does. Second: the unconscious guy doesn’t require the life-support given by an unwilling woman, nurturing him inside her body. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/579 "2014-05-21T05:37:38Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Two reasons. > > First, the straight-up comparison is, itself, fallacious, and everyone here knows that. The guy who is unconscious is still fully-formed and operationally whole. The fetus is not viable, not viable, not functional. It doesn’t have the parts necessary for consciousness. The man does. > > Second: the unconscious guy doesn’t require the life-support given by an unwilling woman, nurturing him inside her body. So, then, to be clear, the requirement of “sentience, consciousness, awareness or intelligence” to be a “person” was just a red herring, right? Glad to see we resolved that. Hope no one brings it up as an argument in the future. The guy who is in a coma, whether fully formed or not, is not capable of sentience, awareness of consciousness. He is a “clump of cells”. His “personhood” is only potential. The same with the fetus. As for your second one - the life-support by the woman already exists. It is not to be given in the future. It is there already. When you take it away, you kill. See my analogy about kicking the guy out of your house into a snowstorm, with 100% chance of killing him. Manslaughter at least, and could be second degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/580 "2014-05-21T06:36:15Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So, then, to be clear, the requirement of “sentience, consciousness, awareness or intelligence” to be a “person” was just a red herring, right? Yes…but you’re the one who dragged it across the tracks. You indulged in a childish display of Socratic pseudo-naivete, pretending that you didn’t know what everyone here knows from experience: a fetus is qualitatively different from a man in a coma. You drew a false equivalence, contrary to everyone’s understanding of reality. > [@](#): > > Glad to see we resolved that. Hope no one brings it up as an argument in the future. Right. Settled and done with. No one would, in good faith, bring it up again. All done with, and settled… > [@](#): > > The guy who is in a coma, whether fully formed or not, is not capable of sentience, awareness of consciousness. He is a “clump of cells”. His “personhood” is only potential. The same with the fetus. Eh? What’s this? “Hope no one brings it up as an argument in the future” and then in the very next sentence…you bring it up. So much for good faith. > [@](#): > > As for your second one - the life-support by the woman already exists. It is not to be given in the future. It is there already. When you take it away, you kill. See my analogy about kicking the guy out of your house into a snowstorm, with 100% chance of killing him. Manslaughter at least, and could be second degree murder. See other people’s analogies about waking up with someone hooked up to you and dependent on you for life support. If the guy is hooked up to my body, then, yes, I have the right to kick him out into the snowstorm. As always, your analogies are not convincing, because there is no possible situation that is meaningfully analogous to an unwanted pregnancy. You really don’t get it, do you? We don’t happen to agree with you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=30)