# How come conservatives are against abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063 "2014-05-09T16:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/621 "2014-05-22T01:17:51Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > At least you agree that the anti-abortion side has a morally defensible argument. There are far too many people on both sides that can’t or won’t recognize that. I know, and it’s depressing. The whole damn debate is the prince of evil, as far as I’m concerned. It’s two groups of people who are differently color-blind, trying desperately to say, “The fireplug is yellow…and so is the grass” to others who say “The fireplug is green…and so is the grass.” We can’t even agree on the basic vocabulary… (Although I believe a great and good compromise was accomplished when each agreed to call the other by the name they, themselves, prefer. At least the “pro-abortion” and “pro-slavery” rhetoric has gone by the wayside…and to hell with it forever…) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/622 "2014-05-22T01:20:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Trinopus: no, the law is on my side. Or at least _some_ law. In all these cases the law treats the fetus fully as a human being that you’re not allowed to kill. . . . Okay, yes, good point. Fetal homicide laws do, indeed, define the unwanted killing of a fetus as a homicidal act. Fortunately, those laws do not apply to abortion, and so you are incorrect in extending them to do so. Since the discussion has been about abortion, and not shooting women in the stomach with shotguns, your little digression is not enlightening, and, in fact, does not put the law on your side. You spoke, just a bit ago, about moving the goalposts. Thank you for the excellent example. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/623 "2014-05-22T01:25:41Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > . . . (BTW, I though that the original question was pretty much answered - well, the opinions were defined - by about page 3 and I stopped checking in. Have we done ectopic pregnancies and what species is the placenta?) Grin! No, fortunately those two debate points haven’t come up yet, although we have done the “house in the woods” thing, as well as “skin cells.” > [@R3d\_Anonymous](#): > > Wow, this thread is still going on? Damn…didn’t know a few-minute high school lunch conversation would turn into hundreds of posts worth of intense debate on the SDMB… Worse, it’s wholly pointless debate. Nobody is profiting in any way. I know I should just walk away and let it go, but I lack sufficient wisdom. As long as snowballs are coming my way, I’ll heave snowballs right back. Not something I’m proud of. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/624 "2014-05-22T01:58:06Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Except without interference, it can’t become a baby. It has to implant and start orchestrating changes in it’s mother’s body. For the first week or two the fertilized egg (up through blastocyst stage) constructs the amnion and the beginning of the umbilical and placenta. There are a few cells clumped together, waiting, that will only start to form an embryo when they get the chemical signal that implantation is complete. At the point of implantation it is a baby. Because if you let the natural processes take their course and do not kill it, it will be a baby. You have to kill it to prevent it from becoming one. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/625 "2014-05-22T02:01:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Okay, yes, good point. Fetal homicide laws do, indeed, define the unwanted killing of a fetus as a homicidal act. > > Fortunately, those laws do not apply to abortion, and so you are incorrect in extending them to do so. > > Since the discussion has been about abortion, and not shooting women in the stomach with shotguns, your little digression is not enlightening, and, in fact, does not put the law on your side. > > You spoke, just a bit ago, about moving the goalposts. Thank you for the excellent example. The laws, whether you agree with them or not, should at least be consistent. In this case, they are not. The fetus is treated, by law, as full-fledged human being, and killing it is a homicide. And then the fetus is treated, by law, as not a full-fledged human being and killing it is not a homicide. So your whole pro-abortion stance is on very shaky ground, and, I hope, will collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/626 "2014-05-22T02:01:43Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Okay, yes, good point. Fetal homicide laws do, indeed, define the unwanted killing of a fetus as a homicidal act. > > Fortunately, those laws do not apply to abortion, and so you are incorrect in extending them to do so. > > Since the discussion has been about abortion, and not shooting women in the stomach with shotguns, your little digression is not enlightening, and, in fact, does not put the law on your side. > > You spoke, just a bit ago, about moving the goalposts. Thank you for the excellent example. The point is that there is no _logical_ reason to differentiate between fetal homicide and abortion, except that in one case the mother wants the baby and in the other she doesn’t. Which is, again, equivalent to saying the value of a person depends on whether they inconvenience others. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/627 "2014-05-22T02:52:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The laws, whether you agree with them or not, should at least be consistent. In this case, they are not. The fetus is treated, by law, as full-fledged human being, and killing it is a homicide. And then the fetus is treated, by law, as not a full-fledged human being and killing it is not a homicide. So your whole pro-abortion stance is on very shaky ground, and, I hope, will collapse. I can give you fifty dollars, and that’s fine. But if you take it by force, or stealth, or fraud, it’s a crime. A woman can end her pregnancy, and that’s fine. But if you end it against her will, by violence, it’s a crime. No inconsistency: it’s merely dependent on circumstances. You may hope it will collapse, exactly as I hope your stance will collapse. Any bets? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/628 "2014-05-22T02:56:34Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The point is that there is no _logical_ reason to differentiate between fetal homicide and abortion, except that in one case the mother wants the baby and in the other she doesn’t. > > Which is, again, equivalent to saying the value of a person depends on whether they inconvenience others. Other than to suggest that an unwanted pregnancy is a bit more of a violation of one’s rights than an “inconvenience,” yes, I agree. I assign the mother the right to choose how her body will be used. The facts aren’t really in debate here. Only the “right and wrong.” You hold abortion to be wrong; I hold the compulsion of any woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy to be wrong. Seriously, what more can be said here? You aren’t going to find any actual inconsistencies in our viewpoint, and I’m not going to find any in yours. The “Aha, you’re wrong because…” strategy doesn’t function in this debate, for either side. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/629 "2014-05-22T03:09:14Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > A woman can end her pregnancy, and that’s fine. But if you end it against her will, by violence, it’s a crime. Ah, but the crime in the law is not against the woman. It is against the fetus. So - killing the fetus is a crime against the fetus in one law and not a crime against the fetus in another. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/630 "2014-05-22T03:14:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > it is a baby…it will be a baby Schrödinger’s fetus? . ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/631 "2014-05-22T04:04:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah, but the crime in the law is not against the woman. It is against the fetus. So - killing the fetus is a crime against the fetus in one law and not a crime against the fetus in another. So what? Seriously, is this something you think is somehow meaningful? If you have a dog, and it’s ailing, you can take it to the vet and have it euthanized. But I can’t come into your yard and kill your dog. Whether the law considers my crime to be against you, or against your dog, is of no relevance here. You have the right to kill it (within certainly guidelines) and I do not. Abortion and feticide are completely different events under the law. For you to try to apply one to the other is, frankly, not at all unexpected. Most of us saw this coming, and knew that fetal-murder laws would be used in exactly this way. You can’t use inapplicable laws to make an end-run around constitutional protections. A law enforcement officer tried this in California, not too long ago, charging a producer of X-rated movies with pandering, given that he was paying people to have sex. A judge threw the charge right out, and rapped the prosecutor’s knuckles for a totally inappropriate application of the law. Your argument is every bit as invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/632 "2014-05-22T04:07:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah, but the crime in the law is not against the woman. It is against the fetus. So - killing the fetus is a crime against the fetus in one law and not a crime against the fetus in another. Yup, exactly. It baffles me that people don’t see an inconsistency here. same planet , different moral universes. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/633 "2014-05-22T04:25:00Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > So what? Seriously, is this something you think is somehow meaningful? Of course. Can you explain exactly how you charge someone with homicide if no human being was killed? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/634 "2014-05-22T06:05:39Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > . . . same planet , different moral universes. Pretty much, yep. What you see as evil, I see as a civil right…and what I see as evil, you see as a civil right. If it weren’t so tragic, it could even be funny. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/635 "2014-05-22T06:10:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course. Can you explain exactly how you charge someone with homicide if no human being was killed? Like you agree with every piece of legislation ever written? Like the People’s Democratic Republic of North Korea is a Democratic Republic? I disagree with the language of the law. So what? So long as it doesn’t apply to abortion, I don’t really care what you call it. If the mother wants it, it’s a sweet little loving baby, her very own child. If she doesn’t want it, it’s a fetus and can be removed surgically. Are you seriously arguing dictionaries here? Words are magic to you? Bad approach; it won’t carry any water in this bucket brigade. Can you seriously not get it through your head? I do not agree with you. How hard is that for you to comprehend? At least **Hector\_St\_Clare** gets it: different moral universes. “How many legs does a horse have if you call its tail a leg?” ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/636 "2014-05-22T11:41:43Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The point is that there is no _logical_ reason to differentiate between fetal homicide and abortion, except that in one case the mother wants the baby and in the other she doesn’t. > > Which is, again, equivalent to saying the value of a person depends on whether they inconvenience others. Do you believe a fertile egg is a chicken, a horse fetus a horse, an apple blossom an apple once it is polenized? Is a frozen embreo a child? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/637 "2014-05-22T12:47:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Like you agree with every piece of legislation ever written? > > Like the People’s Democratic Republic of North Korea is a Democratic Republic? > > I disagree with the language of the law. So what? That’s weaseling. You disagree with the law. Not “the language of the law”. > [@](#): > > Are you seriously arguing dictionaries here? It is not “dictionaries”. It is the inconsistency in the law. Something you apparently refuse to recognize. > [@](#): > > Can you seriously not get it through your head? I do not agree with you. How hard is that for you to comprehend? At least **Hector\_St\_Clare** gets it: different moral universes. Absolutely. There is the moral universe. And there is the immoral one - in which kids are killed and you pretend it is “moral”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/638 "2014-05-22T12:58:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Absolutely. There is the moral universe. And there is the immoral one - in which kids are killed and you pretend it is “moral”. An immoral one is one in which the government prevents, by force, individuals from exercising their right to bodily autonomy, which includes the right to expel anyone or anything that an individual wants out of himself/herself. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/639 "2014-05-22T13:16:28Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Do you believe a fertile egg is a chicken, a horse fetus a horse, an apple blossom an apple once it is polenized? Is a frozen embreo a child? Yes, in all four cases. what other things could they possibly be? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/640 "2014-05-22T13:17:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > An immoral one is one in which the government prevents, by force, individuals from exercising their right to bodily autonomy, which includes the right to expel anyone or anything that an individual wants out of himself/herself. No, that’s the _moral_ one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=33)