# How come conservatives are against abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063 "2014-05-09T16:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/701 "2014-05-24T12:22:31Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I’ve heard this argument as well and do not see its relevance. We are all responsible for our own children. If we are too poor to care for them, then there are various charities and government assistance programs. > > If we start from the presumption that an unborn child is a “person” (which is the GQ answer to the thread title: right or wrong, pro-life people believe that abortion is simply the taking of an innocent human life) then it matters not if you are personally willing to care for the individual I’d like to kill. If I tell you that I want to kill my ex-wife and you object, is it a valid rebuttal to say that if you don’t want me to kill her then you need to pay my child support and alimony? > > I fail to see why I should have to take the obligation of caring for another individual’s child just because I object to killing it. I guess you are one of the people who want a woman to have a lot of children she can’t afford, mentally ,physically, or financially, But want her and the rest of her family to suffer all their lives and like in some places die a slow death for lack of food or medical care. It is not yet a child as the law states now. And most so called pro -life people could care less once they are born and complain about paying taxes they then would rather have a lot of things which means more to them than the people they say should be born. Every time a man ejaculates many potential human lives are killed because there is human life in a man’s sperm. Thousands die even if there is a conception. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/702 "2014-05-24T12:32:19Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > Would it be legal to stop all support for a coma patient in the US or would current law require the patient’s funds to be drained prior to allowing support to end? If the law requires support to be maintained, once the patient’s funds are exhausted is the hospital still required to maintain support on their own dime? Once a person is born it then becomes a citizen and has all the rights of any citizen. They are even protected after it can be recognized as a person, A person in a coma is a person in a deep sleep. That is a big difference. Only in a case that the mother’s life is in danger. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/703 "2014-05-24T15:14:41Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Thanks, so you know it isn’t yet a child. It is the same if still in a woman’s womb. No, it isn’t the same. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/704 "2014-05-24T15:22:14Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I guess you are one of the people who want a woman to have a lot of children she can’t afford, mentally ,physically, or financially, But want her and the rest of her family to suffer all their lives and like in some places die a slow death for lack of food or medical care. No, and no. This is so over the top that I don’t know why it is necessary to respond to it. Contraception is so painfully easy to get and use that there is no need to resort to abortion. The choice is not between legal abortion and families having 13 kids. [Quote=monavis] It is not yet a child as the law states now. [/quote] Yes, I know, but that is the debate here. Simply saying what is true now does not make your point. Suppose we were debating gay marriage in South Carolina, and my rejoinder to any argument you make was “The law simply does not recognize marriage as being between people of the same gender” as if that was an insta-win for me. Just like you would be arguing that the law should be changed, I am arguing the same thing. [Quote=monavis] Every time a man ejaculates many potential human lives are killed because there is human life in a man’s sperm. Thousands die even if there is a conception. [/QUOTE] A sperm is not potential human life. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/705 "2014-05-24T15:34:18Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Once a person is born it then becomes a citizen and has all the rights of any citizen. They are even protected after it can be recognized as a person, A person in a coma is a person in a deep sleep. That is a big difference. Only in a case that the mother’s life is in danger. I asked because **Terr** used that example expecting that people would take issue and I was under the impression that, while morally some may take exception, that it was legal to refuse or withdraw support. Was I incorrect in my impression? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/706 "2014-05-24T15:41:42Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Of course and so you realize a born person has more rights than a clump of cells, and the Law does protect it once it becomes a child. And the Law says that if you kill that clump of cells, it’s murder - in 38 states. Do explain to me how one can murder “a clump of cells” and not a person? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/707 "2014-05-25T12:06:17Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > No, and no. This is so over the top that I don’t know why it is necessary to respond to it. Contraception is so painfully easy to get and use that there is no need to resort to abortion. The choice is not between legal abortion and families having 13 kids. > > Yes, I know, but that is the debate here. Simply saying what is true now does not make your point. Suppose we were debating gay marriage in South Carolina, and my rejoinder to any argument you make was “The law simply does not recognize marriage as being between people of the same gender” as if that was an insta-win for me. Just like you would be arguing that the law should be changed, I am arguing the same thing. > > A sperm is not potential human life. If a sperm doesn’t have human life it could not create a baby. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/708 "2014-05-25T12:16:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And the Law says that if you kill that clump of cells, it’s murder - in 38 states. Do explain to me how one can murder “a clump of cells” and not a person? A fertile egg is not a child, an embryo is not a child nor has it reached the stage that it can be seen as a child. After that the law does not allow an Abortion… A fertile egg is not a chicken, and of course no one can kill or murder a clump of cells. A woman has the right to protect herself. In a war thousands of innocent people re killed. They are already born Self defense is legal. There is a big difference between a fertile egg and a child. The already born have rights. Like it or not! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/709 "2014-05-25T12:21:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And the Law says that if you kill that clump of cells, it’s murder - in 38 states. Do explain to me how one can murder “a clump of cells” and not a person? You can’t say a clump of cells is a baby, and one cannot murder a clump of cells, Any ore than killing a Mosquito is murdering a mosquito You like to use the term Murder and even in some legal cases killing a person is not called murder, like in war or self defense. A woman has the right to self defense. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/710 "2014-05-25T12:50:55Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Of course and so you realize a born person has more rights than a clump of cells, and the Law does protect it once it becomes a child. Just as there is a difference in stealing a fertile chicken egg and a chicken, or a bushel of apple blossoms than a bushel of apples. It is the same with a woman she has a right to self defense, and only she and her doctor know what is best for the mother. She has the right to life and her other children has a right over a fetus ,embryo, or a clump of cells. Nonsense. A fetus, or an embryo, has _essentially the same_ moral status as a born person, because _they are a human person_ at a particularly early stage of development . in the same way that an acorn is an early developmental stage of an oak plant, and apple seed is an early developmental stage of an apple plant, etc. your tale about rescuing the frozen embryos from a burning bulding doesn’t mean much, because we make decisions all the time about choosing to rescue some human lives over others. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/711 "2014-05-25T12:52:40Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > You can’t say a clump of cells is a baby, and one cannot murder a clump of cells, Any ore than killing a Mosquito is murdering a mosquito You like to use the term Murder and even in some legal cases killing a person is not called murder, like in war or self defense. > A woman has the right to self defense. The majority of abortions in this country aren’t for urgent health issues, so self defence is a red herring. No one has the right to kill a child because it would inconvenience their lifestyle choices. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/712 "2014-05-25T13:36:10Z")
It’s not that common (I hope) but what about the case of incestual rape of a minor? Assume an MD feels that carrying the pregnancy to term will not endanger the tween/girls physical health. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/713 "2014-05-25T15:09:25Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > A fertile egg is not a child, an embryo is not a child nor has it reached the stage that it can be seen as a child. After that the law does not allow an Abortion… A fertile egg is not a chicken, and of course no one can kill or murder a clump of cells. A woman has the right to protect herself. In a war thousands of innocent people re killed. They are already born Self defense is legal. > > There is a big difference between a fertile egg and a child. The already born have rights. Like it or not! You still haven’t answered the question. “The Law” (I like how you capitalize it) says that if you kill that clump of cells, it’s murder - in 38 states. Do explain to me how one can murder “a clump of cells” if it is not a person? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/714 "2014-05-25T15:10:40Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > You can’t say a clump of cells is a baby, and one cannot murder a clump of cells But “the Law” says that if you kill that “clump of cells” it’s murder. In 38 states that’s the law. Explain that. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/715 "2014-05-25T20:10:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > But “the Law” says that if you kill that “clump of cells” it’s murder. In 38 states that’s the law. Explain that. There are actually many satisfactory explanations. Let’s look at a few. 1. Even if that were as unambiguously true as you claim (it’s not) the existence of stupid laws is a common phenomenon and isn’t an exoneration of any ethical principle. That’s why laws get overturned, repealed, and amended all the time. 2. Most of those states have a variety of conditions mitigating those laws, the most common one being that they don’t apply to abortions that are otherwise legal and performed with the woman’s consent, or specifying stages or symptoms of gestation. Not something you usually see in “murder” laws! 3. Now it’s your turn to explain why the other 12 states allow abortions in a wide variety of circumstances, or, perhaps more interestingly, why most first-world nations permit abortions at least during the first 12 to 16 weeks of gestation and in some cases longer or with no limits. You don’t find various states or other nations disagreeing about what “murder” is in the accepted meaning of the word, do you? Clearly, your “murder” analogy is deeply flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/716 "2014-05-25T21:31:04Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > There are actually many satisfactory explanations. Let’s look at a few. > > 1. Even if that were as unambiguously true as you claim (it’s not) the existence of stupid laws is a common phenomenon and isn’t an exoneration of any ethical principle. That’s why laws get overturned, repealed, and amended all the time. True. We can only hope the stupid laws permitting abortions that exist today will be. > [@](#): > > 1. Most of those states have a variety of conditions mitigating those laws, the most common one being that they don’t apply to abortions that are otherwise legal and performed with the woman’s consent, or specifying stages or symptoms of gestation. Not something you usually see in “murder” laws! > > 2. Now it’s your turn to explain why the other 12 states allow abortions in a wide variety of circumstances, or, perhaps more interestingly, why most first-world nations permit abortions at least during the first 12 to 16 weeks of gestation and in some cases longer or with no limits. You don’t find various states or other nations disagreeing about what “murder” is in the accepted meaning of the word, do you? > > Clearly, your “murder” analogy is deeply flawed. You still have to explain how exactly you can possibly “murder” a “clump of cells”. Or maybe it isn’t just a “clump of cells”? That would explain it. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/717 "2014-05-25T23:32:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > True. We can only hope the stupid laws permitting abortions that exist today will be. > > You still have to explain how exactly you can possibly “murder” a “clump of cells”. Or maybe it isn’t just a “clump of cells”? That would explain it. I’ll take a shot at it. They are basicaly trumped up charges to pull at heart strings. We assume that the mother wanted the pregnancy. I have no problem with the hammer coming down on those that commit murder. We shouldn’t need the extra charge for this. It’s political pandering. If you get a chance, respond to my post #712. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/718 "2014-05-26T00:31:35Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I’ll take a shot at it. > > They are basicaly trumped up charges to pull at heart strings. We assume that the mother wanted the pregnancy. I have no problem with the hammer coming down on those that commit murder. We shouldn’t need the extra charge for this. It’s political pandering. So you dismiss the law because you don’t like it. Yet you are all aghast at us (anti-abortion people) dismissing the law because we don’t like it. > [@](#): > > If you get a chance, respond to my post #712. I already answered it. In post #522. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/719 "2014-05-26T01:10:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So you dismiss the law because you don’t like it. Yet you are all aghast at us (anti-abortion people) dismissing the law because we don’t like it. I question the law. [QUOTE=Terr] I already answered it. In post #522. [/QUOTE] No, no you didn’t. This is your post #522 - [QUOTE=Terr] It can be an inconvenience. It can be a wonderful experience. It can be a real drag. It can even be a life-threatening thing. But only in the last case it is justified to kill the kid. Even by rape. The kid does not carry the blame for the rape and does not deserve the death sentence because of it. H ell, even rapists do not get death sentences in our courts. [/quote] So. You think that a rape of a minor, even by a sibling that causes a pregnacy is an ‘inconvenience’. Or a real drag. Let’s be clear here. You don’t think that abortion is reasonable when a minor is raped by a sibling? Correct? ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/720 "2014-05-26T01:33:31Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Every time a man ejaculates many potential human lives are killed because there is human life in a man’s sperm. Thousands die even if there is a conception. That’s entirely specious and you know it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=37)