# How come conservatives are against abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063 "2014-05-09T16:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/781 "2014-05-27T07:10:33Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Within the legal abortion-by-choice period, embryos don’t kick because they don’t have legs. Or a nervous system that would send the electrical impulse necessary for a muscle contraction, really. Utter crap. > **[Inside pregnancy: weeks 10-14 (Video)](https://www.babycentre.co.uk/v1027478/inside-pregnancy-weeks-10-14-video)** > > A 3D animated look at how a baby develops inside the uterus from weeks 10 to 14 in the first trimester of pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/782 "2014-05-27T07:21:49Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It’s not, though. A baby is a baby, and a fetus is a fetus, and an embryo is an embryo. And I can make up any number of words to classify them differently. Those are all human constructs, and subject to change depending on what your frame of reference is. You’re making the same argument that race realists are making when they say that races exist as biological entities because… they’ve defined them to exist. The other side can just say that a “baby” means anything post fertilization. It’s no different than the way we define minor and adult. Do you think something magical happens on a person’s 18th birthday? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/783 "2014-05-27T12:58:09Z")
I’m not \*defining \*anything. I’m using English words to mean what they mean, and what they’ve always meant. “The other side” can say a pretty little teapot is a baby, but that doesn’t make it so. “Baby” (or “bairn” if yer Scôttish) means a child between the time of its birth and ~ the time it can walk, at which point people start throwing “toddler” around. I did not make that up ! I don’t think something magical happens at birth, or at the end of embryogenesis. The definition is absolutely arbitrary, much like the fact that this stage of a human’s life is called “baby” or “infant” in the English language and not “kwyjibo” is arbitrary\*. But they, or anybody, don’t get to torture that poor language to suit their rhetorical needs of the moment. Let _them_ come up with new words if they need any. - (Except it’s not really, because the word “baby”, as it is in many other languages, is onomatopeic and based on the noises babies make when they start babbling about. Another thing embryos do not do) [QUOTE=Terr] > [@Terr](#): > > Maybe in your own country. But not in the US or other countries. > > [Late termination of pregnancy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy) - see “Incidence”. In US, according to this. 5%+ abortions are done after 16 weeks. That is, after the “kicking” stage, according to you. That’s 50,000+ “kicking” babies killed. Every year. I did specify electives. I know, I know, all those pesky details getting in the way of your simplistic worldview and “clever” gotchas are annoying. But look on the bright side : now you get to frantically dig for a cite demonstrating that those 5% were not medically necessary ! Go on, run along, sweetie. Have fun and be home by 6. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/784 "2014-05-27T13:01:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I did specify electives. > I know, I know, all those pesky details getting in the way of your simplistic worldview and “clever” gotchas are annoying. But look on the bright side : now you get to frantically dig for a cite demonstrating that those 5% were not medically necessary! It is your claim, it is on you to support it. Show that the 5% are all medically necessary. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/785 "2014-05-27T13:10:21Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Because we are emotional human beings, not Vulcans. Why shouldn’t emotion play into the abortion debate? I have never heard a pregnant woman refer to the thing growing inside of her as a fetus, embryo or “clump of cells” (not your words, I know). Why are they all wrong? Why can’t we all use the term “baby” in what is an emotionally charged debate? The term EXPECTING A BABY does not imply it is yet a baby,any more than a pollinated apple blossom is an apple. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/786 "2014-05-27T13:13:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > How about the word “murder” in the law that assigns that term to to killing what you call the “clump of cells” and punishes the person that does that for murder. Is that “emotional”? Then war is murder, self defense is murder in the terms you imply. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/787 "2014-05-27T13:21:17Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Then war is murder, self defense is murder in the terms you imply. Those are not “my terms”. The law in the US in 38 states defines killing those “clumps of cells” as murder. You still have not managed to explain how exactly one can “murder” something that you claim is not a “person”. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/788 "2014-05-27T13:32:08Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > No, and no. This is so over the top that I don’t know why it is necessary to respond to it. Contraception is so painfully easy to get and use that there is no need to resort to abortion. The choice is not between legal abortion and families having 13 kids. > > Yes, I know, but that is the debate here. Simply saying what is true now does not make your point. Suppose we were debating gay marriage in South Carolina, and my rejoinder to any argument you make was “The law simply does not recognize marriage as being between people of the same gender” as if that was an insta-win for me. Just like you would be arguing that the law should be changed, I am arguing the same thing. > > A sperm is not potential human life. No, A sperm must contain human life or there would be no conception, and since the argument is pro–life what about the human life of a man’s sperm. Even in the Old Testament God allows the Hebrews to Kill all the people even children and unborn just so they could take the land, this was after it states “Thou shalt not kill.” ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/789 "2014-05-27T13:39:37Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I’m not sure the possible relevance of this. > > Ninety-year-olds have an unusually high natural death rate compared to thirty year olds, does that mean we cease to be people when we turn eighty-five or something? Once a person is born it will always have the protection of the law regardless it’s age. It has become a part of society, and is a fully in every sense a human person. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/790 "2014-05-27T13:47:44Z")
Look, there is no law that says I have the right to live at your expense. Absolutely nobody has the right to use your body without your permission. What gives the fetus that right? I say, induce labor, let the “baby” be born at four months, and if it survives, fine. If not, too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/791 "2014-05-27T13:55:45Z")
Still waiting for a cite for this - [QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] Pre-Roe v. Wade, any doctor treating an emergency room patient for “suspected miscarriage” had to find some fetal tissue or they were required by law to turn the patient over to the police for questioning about a “suspected induced abortion.” [/QUOTE] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/792 "2014-05-27T18:06:31Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Look, there is no law that says I have the right to live at your expense. Are you kidding? Then let me acquaint you with Social Security, welfare, food stamps, etc., etc., etc. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Absolutely nobody has the right to use your body without your permission. What gives the fetus that right? The fact that the mother’s body was used to create it in the first place, and that the mother’s body shouldn’t have the right to use the fetus’s body (for termination/birth control/her convenience) without its permission? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/793 "2014-05-27T18:12:59Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The fact that the mother’s body was used to create it in the first place, and that the mother’s body shouldn’t have the right to use the fetus’s body (for termination/birth control/her convenience) without its permission? The mother isn’t using the fetus’s body for anything – the mother has the right to expel the fetus from inside her body. Just as everyone has the right to expel anyone else who is inside their body. If there were a way for fetuses to be removed without being killed (i.e. frozen, or placed in an artifical womb of some sort), would you believe that the government should outlaw this procedure? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/794 "2014-05-27T18:31:39Z")
Well, obviously **Starving Artist** is radically adverse to the removal of cancerous tumours. Hey, your body was used to create it in the first place, it depends on being attached to you for its survival and you have no right to use it for termination\* without its permission, pal ! Live with your gawd derm adenocarcinoma ! - (and Her Majesty’s Royal Oxymoron Award goes to…) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/795 "2014-05-27T18:33:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The mother isn’t using the fetus’s body for anything – the mother has the right to expel the fetus from inside her body. Just as everyone has the right to expel anyone else who is inside their body. I’m unaware of any other occasion in which a woman may find it necessary to “expel” someone from her body. Certainly she has a right to call for withdrawal if she wishes. I do not however believe in a so-called right to expel “anything” from a woman’s body if that something happens to be a fetus that has reached baby stage in its development. It is totally innocent, was created without its permission and had no choice in the matter. Being a conservative I tend toward certain feelings of individual responsibility, and my belief is that if you undertake certain activity that you know may result in pregnancy, you then bear responsibility for the care and safety of the child that behavior creates. If you then don’t want to raise it you can put it up for adoption. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If there were a way for fetuses to be removed without being killed (i.e. frozen, or placed in an artifical womb of some sort), would you believe that the government should outlaw this procedure? Wouldn’t want them frozen. An artificial womb of some sort or medical care similar to that provided for the little girl at 20 weeks I’ve been linking to over and over would be good. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/796 "2014-05-27T20:06:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Go play outside, dear. The grown-ups are talking. Kobal, I’m letting you off with a mod note here but it could easily have been a warning. Insulting other posters - which is what you did here, even if you did it sweetly - is forbidden. I expect you not to do it again, ever. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/797 "2014-05-27T21:46:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’m unaware of any other occasion in which a woman may find it necessary to “expel” someone from her body. Certainly she has a right to call for withdrawal if she wishes. Are you kidding? There are [tens of thousands](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States#Rape_statistics) of such violations every year. Women absolutely have the right to expel these violators from their bodies. > [@](#): > > I do not however believe in a so-called right to expel “anything” from a woman’s body if that something happens to be a fetus that has reached baby stage in its development. It is totally innocent, was created without its permission and had no choice in the matter. Being a conservative I tend toward certain feelings of individual responsibility, and my belief is that if you undertake certain activity that you know may result in pregnancy, you then bear responsibility for the care and safety of the child that behavior creates. If you then don’t want to raise it you can put it up for adoption. Are your feelings different for victims of rape? Do you believe rape victims should have the right to end their pregnancies? > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t want them frozen. An artificial womb of some sort or medical care similar to that provided for the little girl at 20 weeks I’ve been linking to over and over would be good. So if artificial womb technology existed, you would support a woman’s right to end her pregnancy at any time and expel the fetus, if she so wished, as long as she utilized this technology? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/798 "2014-05-27T21:48:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So if artificial womb technology existed, you would support a woman’s right to end her pregnancy at any time and expel the fetus, if she so wished, as long as she utilized this technology? If the baby is not killed, of course. Why wouldn’t I support it? But that “right” is currently trumped by the baby’s right to live. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/799 "2014-05-27T21:50:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If the baby is not killed, of course. Why wouldn’t I support it? But that “right” is currently trumped by the baby’s right to live. In your opinion it is, but not in my opinion. I’m thankful that in most states, my opinion jives with legal reality. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063/800 "2014-05-27T21:52:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In your opinion it is, but not in my opinion. I’m thankful that in most states, my opinion jives with legal reality. I am very sorry for thinking that you asked the question to get an answer, and not just to have a pretext to repeat yourself yet again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-come-conservatives-are-against-abortion/688063.md?page=41)